cup 11 -thoughts..

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Nolamike
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Nolamike » 01 Mar 2011, 02:59

Goat Boy wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
mentalist (slight return) wrote:I'm running out of songs, kick me out already.


You can have some of my mine, I probably won't need them much longer.


Stop being coy. Your list is doing Ok.


Especially if it's the one up against mine. Yeeeeesssshhhhh..... :(
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby BARON CORNY DOG » 01 Mar 2011, 03:54

Goat Boy wrote:The only issue I have with tie breaks is that the new 5 should correspond to the original list, that's all.


Then it's not much of a tie breaker, is it!
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Goat Boy » 01 Mar 2011, 11:27

LeBaron wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:The only issue I have with tie breaks is that the new 5 should correspond to the original list, that's all.


Then it's not much of a tie breaker, is it!


Well, no :lol:
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Loki » 03 Mar 2011, 00:37

neverknows wrote:
Loki wrote:I see your point but I have to agree with GB - isn't the whole point of adding 5 to.....um, like, well isn't part of the idea to make it all flow together, or some crap like that?

That is what goes on in the main match. The point of a tie-breaker is to, erm, break a tie.
Like The Modernist said, I don't see what's the problem suddenly, they've always been used in the Cup. They seem unfair but remember you only go through it because your whole list couldn't win when it had a chance.

Oh, ok - I get it now.
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Beebsy » 03 Mar 2011, 22:17

Goat Boy wrote:The only issue I have with tie breaks is that the new 5 should correspond to the original list, that's all.


I've only just realised that it doesn't tonight. I surely can't be the only one. To assume that all people new to the cup would do is daft.

And I completely agree with all that Doug has said on this. I thought we judged the list on its entire merits. So in the way that some of us think it's a bit silly to vote against a list because you really dislike one song, this reduces the competition somewhat.

I don't see what's wrong with posting the original list with the five new additions. Now the only problem I see is that the winner of a tie-break would have to drop those five and submit a new five for the next round but that's not insurmountable.

I just think the lists should be voted for in their entirety.

The Modernist

Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby The Modernist » 03 Mar 2011, 22:19

Beebsy wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:The only issue I have with tie breaks is that the new 5 should correspond to the original list, that's all.


I've only just realised that it doesn't tonight. I surely can't be the only one. To assume that all people new to the cup would do is daft.

And I completely agree with all that Doug has said on this. I thought we judged the list on its entire merits. So in the way that some of us think it's a bit silly to vote against a list because you really dislike one song, this reduces the competition somewhat.

I don't see what's wrong with posting the original list with the five new additions. Now the only problem I see is that the winner of a tie-break would have to drop those five and submit a new five for the next round but that's not insurmountable.

I just think the lists should be voted for in their entirety.


But what you're saying defeats the purpose of a tie-break. You would just get people not changing their votes.

Beebsy

Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Beebsy » 03 Mar 2011, 22:21

The Modernist wrote:
The whole point of the tie-break is to judge on the new songs, otherwise everyone would just stick to their original vote.


But I don't see what's wrong with that. You could still change your mind based on the new five but at least you would be doing it within context.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby the masked man » 03 Mar 2011, 22:24

Yes, Moddie's right; you're simply judging five new songs without any baggage from the earlier choices getting in the way. The point is that the original choices simply produced a deadlock, so they are no longer relevant. It's entirely analogous to a penalty shoot-out in football. Maybe it's not an ideal way to settle a match, but it's what we've had throughout the history of the cup.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Beebsy » 03 Mar 2011, 22:26

the masked man wrote:Yes, Moddie's right; you're simply judging five new songs without any baggage from the earlier choices getting in the way. The point is that the original choices simply produced a deadlock, so they are no longer relevant. It's entirely analogous to a penalty shoot-out in football. Maybe it's not an ideal way to settle a match, but it's what we've had throughout the history of the cup.

But that doesn't mean they would produce a deadlock with the five new songs in context. I have changed my mind on lists with the addition of new songs - I'm sure lots of us have.

If the previous lists aren't relevant, it almost defeats the purpose of the whole cup! Baggage is what makes it.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby whodathunkit » 04 Mar 2011, 00:12

I'm a lot happier with the tie-breaker system since MM has confirmed that the lists of five don't necessarily line up with the original As and Bs. I'm sure some clever dicks think they can line them up so good luck with that. The point is that 48 hours and 70-odd votes couldn't separate the two lists so we have to try something different -a stand alone list of 5.As Andrew said, the equivalent to a penalty shoot-out, rock-scissors-stone, an arse-kicking contest, whatever. I'm sure I've ended up voting against a list I initially supported but tough shit.

Of course, this argument is then invalidated by the fact that we carry this "stand alone" list forward to the next round. Entrants have not just entered another five but their next five - which is a whole different thing.
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Mike Boom » 04 Mar 2011, 00:58

whodathunkit wrote:Of course, this argument is then invalidated by the fact that we carry this "stand alone" list forward to the next round. Entrants have not just entered another five but their next five - which is a whole different thing.


I think this is the only drawback of the tie breaker, I think the five selected for the tie breaker should then either be jettisoned for the next round and a new five selected or left added to the main list but a new five still selected, otherwise your left with a stale new five for the next round as has been pointed out.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby B » 04 Mar 2011, 03:02

I was in a tie breaker and wasn't sure how those go down. What made sense to me is that the 5 for the tie breaker would be for the tie breaker only. The rest of the list isn't there in the tiebreaker so why have the tie breaker selections carry into the following round? It doesn't exactly matter to me at this point but that's how I see it.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Loki » 04 Mar 2011, 04:25

mentalist (slight return) wrote:I'm running out of songs, kick me out already.

:lol: :lol: :lol:




:evil:
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Loki » 04 Mar 2011, 04:55

The Modernist wrote:
Count Machuki wrote:What about paring the original lists down to three songs for the tie-breaker? Put what you think are your three best songs of the original list up against what the other poster thinks are his three best.


That's the best suggestion so far as it would give people a chance to highlight what they think is great about their list.


Yes, not a terrible idea at all.
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Diamond Dog » 04 Mar 2011, 08:30

Loki wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
Count Machuki wrote:What about paring the original lists down to three songs for the tie-breaker? Put what you think are your three best songs of the original list up against what the other poster thinks are his three best.


That's the best suggestion so far as it would give people a chance to highlight what they think is great about their list.


Yes, not a terrible idea at all.


it's a fucking awful idea. It kind of negates the idea of posting coherent lists, in the first place, and - anyway- how can a person choose which three? Presumably they would be able to post hundreds of songs they consider great - why would they be able to just pick three and say, that's the best three.
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Beebsy » 04 Mar 2011, 14:35

So we are saying that the lists are coherent then?

If so, as I said before (but does anybody listen? :evil: :D ) print the whole list with the five additional so we can see them in context (am I on repeat here?!).

Then, if it's not too convoluted, drop those five. And submit the list with its new five when it goes through.

I know I'm being a bit of a dog with a bone here but they are either whole lists or not (excluding the fact that some people allow one song to ruin a list for them).

The Modernist

Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby The Modernist » 04 Mar 2011, 14:42

Well we're going over the same ground here, but if faced with a list of 20 tracks that you preferred to the other 20, I think it unlikely that a new five tacked on to the end would have sufficient weight to make you want to switch your vote.
At least having five new tracks makes people have to judge things again.

The Modernist

Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby The Modernist » 04 Mar 2011, 15:16

I think with the criticism that lists can look stale when the tie-break five are repeated in the next round, I can see nothing wrong with giving people the option of having an entirely new set of five songs or even just using some of them with new songs. However if we made this change it would have to wait until next year as I don't think it would be fair to alter things halfway through.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby the masked man » 04 Mar 2011, 17:57

The Modernist wrote:I think with the criticism that lists can look stale when the tie-break five are repeated in the next round, I can see nothing wrong with giving people the option of having an entirely new set of five songs or even just using some of them with new songs. However if we made this change it would have to wait until next year as I don't think it would be fair to alter things halfway through.


There's absolutely no question of changing the rules in the middle of a tournament - we've already had something like six or seven tied matches, so it would look ridiculous to treat the next tied match differently. Also, we're clearly going to struggle to get consensus on how to proceed at present.

Nevertheless, I think there is an argument for discussing how to improve the tournament before next year's BCB Cup arrives. There's also another question here. What happens when the tie-break match is also drawn? I don't think this has ever happened before, although one of this year's replays was settled by a single vote. Maybe, if this did happen, we could use five new songs that won't go forward to the next round?

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Nolamike » 04 Mar 2011, 18:13

the masked man wrote:There's also another question here. What happens when the tie-break match is also drawn? I don't think this has ever happened before, although one of this year's replays was settled by a single vote. Maybe, if this did happen, we could use five new songs that won't go forward to the next round?


In that case, it might be neat to do only have a three song list, or even one song v. one song.
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