Do you wish death on your enemies?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Rorschach
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Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Rorschach » 19 May 2021, 07:57

Some time ago on Facebook, I got people being mean to me because I suggested that i didn't mind at all if Boris Johnson died when he had Covid. Johnny Fartpants of this parish was one of the people who found it a bit outrageous (though he was happy to wish death on Donald Trump) along with a lot of people who normally don't have a good word to say about the man.

It strikes me that most people think it's wrong to wish death on someone, no matter how much you hate them.

I don't get it.

In the case of politicians whom you think are bad people and are deliberately making life worse for other people, why wouldn't you want them permanently out of the way? Why do you want them to live?

I would be very happy to walk into a 1922 committee meeting firing a machine gun and chucking firebombs. But I guess I'm an idealist.

By the way, I fully understand that some people may feel the same about me and I'm comfortable with that.
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Rayge » 19 May 2021, 08:50

Nah, but then again I'm an extremist who is very reluctant to kill anything, at least in the physical sense (I'm quite prepared to mentally elide people who exhibit enmity towards me). I'm a gardener who won't use pesticides, and who, when I find a slug taking out my seedlings, simply relocates it.
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby KeithPratt » 19 May 2021, 08:59

Rorschach wrote:
In the case of politicians whom you think are bad people and are deliberately making life worse for other people, why wouldn't you want them permanently out of the way? Why do you want them to live?

I would be very happy to walk into a 1922 committee meeting firing a machine gun and chucking firebombs. But I guess I'm an idealist.



No, you're a Marxist-Leninist by the sounds of it. Ruthless and prepared to use violence essentially for political gain. Thank god you didn't have a career in politics.

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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Rorschach » 19 May 2021, 09:01

Rayge wrote:Nah, but then again I'm an extremist who is very reluctant to kill anything, at least in the physical sense (I'm quite prepared to mentally elide people who exhibit enmity towards me). I'm a gardener who won't use pesticides, and who, when I find a slug taking out my seedlings, simply relocates it.


Fair enough. Bit you might argue that slugs and such aren't evil.

But anyway, to some extent it becomes like the trolley problem, in that one can argue that you're reducing the amount of misery in the world by eliminating some bad people (I admit that I can't use that argument when I want to machine gun the old lady in front of me in the queue in the bakers who insists on telling the shop assistant about what happened when her daughter came to visit her yesterday), especially certain politicians. In many cases it seems at least possible that you would save lives by killing certain politicians.

So, is it just that you prefer to accept the evil in the world rather than be the agent of death yourself, or do you think it is wrong to wish death on anyone, no matter what the circumstances?
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Rorschach » 19 May 2021, 09:03

KeithPratt wrote:
Rorschach wrote:
In the case of politicians whom you think are bad people and are deliberately making life worse for other people, why wouldn't you want them permanently out of the way? Why do you want them to live?

I would be very happy to walk into a 1922 committee meeting firing a machine gun and chucking firebombs. But I guess I'm an idealist.



No, you're a Marxist-Leninist by the sounds of it. Ruthless and prepared to use violence essentially for political gain. Thank god you didn't have a career in politics.



Ha ha! it's all so simple in Tobyland, isn't it. Reduce everything to a label and you're sorted.

I'm by no means a Marxist-Leninist you twit.

And surely even you can see that I would have no interest in a career in politics. If anything I'd want to be a terrorist (Not that I do...).
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Rayge » 19 May 2021, 09:19

Rorschach wrote:
Rayge wrote:Nah, but then again I'm an extremist who is very reluctant to kill anything, at least in the physical sense (I'm quite prepared to mentally elide people who exhibit enmity towards me). I'm a gardener who won't use pesticides, and who, when I find a slug taking out my seedlings, simply relocates it.


Fair enough. Bit you might argue that slugs and such aren't evil.
So, is it just that you prefer to accept the evil in the world rather than be the agent of death yourself, or do you think it is wrong to wish death on anyone, no matter what the circumstances?

There is no evil in 'the world'. Evil is a concept used by individuals and institutions to indicate something or someone they feel is inimical to their selves, happiness, or judgement of the way things work, or should work, in their version of the world.
That's the way I think, anyway. Other philosophies are available :D
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Rorschach » 19 May 2021, 09:20

KeithPratt wrote:
No, you're a Marxist-Leninist by the sounds of it. Ruthless and prepared to use violence essentially for political gain. Thank god you didn't have a career in politics.


Just out of curiosity, what's your one-size-fits-all label for the people who attacked the Capitol, looking for Nancy Pelosi etc?
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Rorschach » 19 May 2021, 09:26

Rayge wrote:There is no evil in 'the world'. Evil is a concept used by individuals and institutions to indicate something or someone they feel is inimical to their selves, happiness, or judgement of the way things work, or should work, in their version of the world.
That's the way I think, anyway. Other philosophies are available :D


I agree with your definition, 100%. Same as mine. I believe that ethics/morality is just a branch of aesthetics. That which is good is just what you happen to like.

However, I do use words like 'evil' as a shorthand for things or people who go against either my idea of what is 'right' (as defined above) or the generally accepted idea of what is good, as in natural law.

I'm not asking about whether anyone thinks it's right to blow up the Tory party, but whether they think it's acceptable to wish death on someone they consider bad/evil by their own definition of these concepts.
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby kath » 19 May 2021, 09:47

i think i've attended too many funerals to ever wish death on anyone.

however, "rotting in jail until fucqueface turns into worm meal" is a sentiment i am not above.

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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby KeithPratt » 19 May 2021, 09:50

Rorschach wrote:
I'm not asking about whether anyone thinks it's right to blow up the Tory party, but whether they think it's acceptable to wish death on someone they consider bad/evil by their own definition of these concepts.


No, because we would be in a Hobbesian state of nature otherwise.

Morals have to be consensual in a functioning society.

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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Rayge » 19 May 2021, 10:01

Rorschach wrote:
Rayge wrote:There is no evil in 'the world'. Evil is a concept used by individuals and institutions to indicate something or someone they feel is inimical to their selves, happiness, or judgement of the way things work, or should work, in their version of the world.
That's the way I think, anyway. Other philosophies are available :D


I'm not asking about whether anyone thinks it's right to blow up the Tory party, but whether they think it's acceptable to wish death on someone they consider bad/evil by their own definition of these concepts.

It's not acceptable for me and my definition if who I am, no. But if other people think that way (and they obviously do :D ) that's up to them.

And there's a lot of difference between wishing someone or something was not alive to immanentizing the Eschaton.
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Rorschach » 19 May 2021, 10:13

Rayge wrote:
And there's a lot of difference between wishing someone or something was not alive to immanentizing the Eschaton.


I had to look that up!

I think I could get into it...
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Rorschach » 19 May 2021, 10:21

KeithPratt wrote:
Rorschach wrote:
I'm not asking about whether anyone thinks it's right to blow up the Tory party, but whether they think it's acceptable to wish death on someone they consider bad/evil by their own definition of these concepts.


No, because we would be in a Hobbesian state of nature otherwise.


No. We really wouldn't.
Lots of people do it all the time and I haven't noticed an increase in the Hobbesian state of nature in Barcelona at least.

KeithPratt wrote:Morals have to be consensual in a functioning society.


No, they really don't.
I have very different morals from lots of people who, in turn, have different morals from other people. We have laws to maintain a functioning society. What people think is right or wrong is ultimately irrelevant.

You should stop trying to show off that you've read some books all the time and actually think about what people have written and answer honestly about what you think about that. You know, what YOU think, instead of chucking irrelevant labels and names around.

Hobbesian state of nature my arse.
Last edited by Rorschach on 19 May 2021, 12:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Deebank » 19 May 2021, 10:36

Rorschach wrote:
Rayge wrote:
And there's a lot of difference between wishing someone or something was not alive to immanentizing the Eschaton.


I had to look that up!

I think I could get into it...


I would have put money on you being a Robert Anton Wilson fan :)
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby KeithPratt » 19 May 2021, 11:01

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but don't laws emerge from moral issues and concerns?

Yes, laws prevent people from committing immoral acts, but their creation comes about from situations where someone or something is wronged in the form of physical, mental or financial hurt against themselves or their property.

Laws are necessary to maintain a functioning society, yes. That would then assume that there is a consensual body of morality in that society which has created those laws. Of course, within that body, there may be a wider range of morality on different issues. For example, I think we would all agree that it is generally wrong to mug people in the street, but that downloading a widely available film from a website is, on the spectrum of theft, a much milder concern.

I think you're on the edge of the spectrum when you consider that it is acceptable to wish death on politicians personally. I would never wish death on anyone unless they had hurt me violently in a specific and very deep manner, and even then unless I was in that situation, it is impossible to predict what I would think in that moment.

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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Rorschach » 19 May 2021, 11:03

Deebank wrote:
Rorschach wrote:
Rayge wrote:
And there's a lot of difference between wishing someone or something was not alive to immanentizing the Eschaton.


I had to look that up!

I think I could get into it...


I would have put money on you being a Robert Anton Wilson fan :)


You would have lost. I had to look him up as well.

And I'm not flattered!
He sounds like a bit of a tit to me.
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby Rorschach » 19 May 2021, 11:09

KeithPratt wrote:
I think you're on the edge of the spectrum when you consider that it is acceptable to wish death on politicians personally. I would never wish death on anyone unless they had hurt me violently in a specific and very deep manner, and even then unless I was in that situation, it is impossible to predict what I would think in that moment.


There you see. You can do it.
You finally said what you think about the issue I was asking about.

I think your view is that of the majority (not that I have any data to back that up). You don't wish death on people you don't like and you think it's wrong for other people to do so.

That's all I wanted to know.
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby The Prof » 19 May 2021, 11:27

If Johnson had died of Covid, would you have felt quite proud? or would you have kept quiet about your wish?

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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby never/ever » 19 May 2021, 11:47

I'd appreciated the irony.
More so if it happened to be Bolsonaro....
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Re: Do you wish death on your enemies?

Postby jimboo » 19 May 2021, 11:50

The kind people
Have a wonderful dream
Margaret on the guillotine
'Cause people like you
Make me feel so tired


When will you die?
When will you die?
When will you die?
When will you die?
When will you die?


And people like you
Make me feel so old inside
Please die
And kind people
Do not shelter this dream

Make it real
Make the dream real
Make the dream real
Make it real
Make the dream real
Make it real
If I jerk- the handle jerk- the handle you'll thrill me and thrill me