Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby jimboo » 29 Apr 2021, 15:42

Geezee wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
Geezee wrote:
I've been away, but there is not one part of my outline that is not true, or at least feel free to point out where i was not and I'd be happy to review. The EU DID buy massive amounts of vaccines - more per capita than the UK. And of course that is nothing at all to be proud of for either country/region - they have bought far more than what either needed (~5 doses per person per country). The US/Canada even worse (Canada prepurchased 9 doses per person). And of course, in doing so, they ensure that they shut off access to countries in emerging markets who are not even able to vaccinate the most vulnerable at this stage. We could - and should - have defeated the pandemic by now (converting it into a fully manageable series of minor epidemics with very low hospitalisation/mortality). But the advanced purchase agreements that the UK and Europe pioneered completely skewed the global response. Absolutely nothing to be proud of for any country in the West, and plenty to be very embarrassed about. But the UK took it a step further by also demanding exclusivity, which meant that they created an export ban of any vaccine from the UK. And of course it then all comes down to luck - AZ (as a complete novice to the vaccine market) had a disastrous development programme and supply chain management for its vaccine, and UK/Europe had thrown their eggs in that basket. US had thrown their eggs with Pfizer/Moderna. US got lucky because the Pfizer/Moderna vaccine results are beyond amazing (and very unexpected given the completely unproven mRNA technologieS); Europe got screwed because a) the AZ vaccine, while highly effective, was so badly managed and b) UK shut off its part of the supply chain for the AZ vaccine (while Europe still exported to the UK as it is meant to be an integrated and inter-dependent supply chain). Europe then switched over to Pfizer/Moderna/JnJ, UK is still largely sticking with AZ and its incredible spaced-out dosing trial.

By all accounts, the UK and Europe will reach herd immunity at around the same time around this summer. Yes, some countries in Europe are at the moment experiencing higher infection rates - but that is only the delayed epidemics that the UK kicked off with at the beginning of the year. If the UK's third wave had started a bit later, it would be just as bad. The UK still has the most disastrous outcomes of the pandemic, both from a health and economic perspective, across these 15 months. Again, plenty of factors go into that, but this sudden "pride" that the UK got this part right is astonishing and highly misrepresented in the UK.


Where do you get your information from? Honestly I despair. I suggest you apply for a job in the hyper bureaucratic, hyper bullshit Eu parliament, where I am sure they will appreciate your commitment to dishonestly representing facts. You live in a dream world.



I work for the company and lead the division that provides the UK's government's core COVID19 vaccination data.


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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Diamond Dog » 29 Apr 2021, 15:51

The UK (despite having the most advanced vaccine programme which has absolutely stopped deaths in its tracks the past three months) sits 13th in the world in terms of deaths per million of population. RE : https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries because I actually prefer a few FACTS, not bluster like your good self Michael. The top 12 , you may ask :

Hungary
Gibraltar
Czech Republic
San Marino
Bosnia
Montenegro
Bulgaria
North Macedonia
Slovakia
Belgium
Slovenia
Italy (which has just crept back above the UK after 12 months behind it).

So - which of those would you say has a comparable economy to ours Michael?
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 29 Apr 2021, 21:34

Diamond Dog wrote:The UK (despite having the most advanced vaccine programme which has absolutely stopped deaths in its tracks the past three months) sits 13th in the world in terms of deaths per million of population. RE : https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries because I actually prefer a few FACTS, not bluster like your good self Michael. The top 12 , you may ask :

Hungary
Gibraltar
Czech Republic
San Marino
Bosnia
Montenegro
Bulgaria
North Macedonia
Slovakia
Belgium
Slovenia
Italy (which has just crept back above the UK after 12 months behind it).

So - which of those would you say has a comparable economy to ours Michael?


So you trust the figures of Russia, India, China, Brazil...I could go on. As I said in my earlier post, I believe that when the dust settles , we will see that the only way this pandemic can be stopped is through vaccination. Now you might want to believe that Russia only had 2000 deaths in the first wave, but in reality it is extremely unlikely. Brazil has been building and filling absolutely huge graveyards, yet reports very few deaths. Even now, when the funeral pyres can be seen from space, India is reporting proportionately few deaths, and the real number is eastimated to be three times higher than it is. As I also said, this is not a race, or a league. Of course it is politically expedient for you to blame one man and his caped assistant for the whole thing, but that is quite as absurd as me blaming Gordon Brown for the world financial meltdown. ( which I still do). Time will tell. No one is suggesting we, or in fact anyone has done well. There are horror stories from all over the world. But I suspect it will be an even picture everywhere the virus raised its head. And then you will not be able to blame Boris and Govey for the whole thing, despite desperately wanting to.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby mudshark » 29 Apr 2021, 22:07

I think all the 5 PM's mentioned are/were cunts actually.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Rorschach » 30 Apr 2021, 07:57

yomptepi wrote:... that is quite as absurd as me blaming Gordon Brown for the world financial meltdown. ( which I still do). ...


Some serious cognitive dissonance going on there, Michael.

As for the rest of your post, apart from you typical and annoying ad hominem straw manning and general bollocks, there is some truth in what you're saying. The UK probably produces the most accurate statistics in the world (thanks to Geezee apparently!) with its methodology producing figures that map extremely closely to excess deaths. It's not simply lying that causes other countries to undercount though; it's more likely to be using different methods which turn out to be less accurate.
For example, in the UK, deaths are counted as Covid deaths for anyone who dies and had tested positive in the last 3 months (I'm making up the length of time because I don't remember but it's something of that order). This means that the UK counts people who catch Covid and then get run over by a bus. On the other hand, they miss people who die of Covid without being diagnosed. It turns out that these numbers are hardly statistically significant and seem to balance each other out.
Other countries, such as Peru, only count people who are diagnosed as having Covid at the time of death and they are reporting about 25% of the numbers of excess deaths (another made up number but, etc.).

However, even taking those facts into account, up to a couple of months ago, the UK was still believed to have a very high death rate per capita among wealthy countries. This position may improve due to a successful vaccination program. We shall see.

But, as I've said before so many times, why do you have to cover your seeds of intelligent analysis under a mountain of manure so big that the rose of truth can never find it's way out?.
Honestly, if you reined in your gammonesque tendencies you could play a valuable part in discussions and more people would invite you over for tea.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby The Prof » 30 Apr 2021, 12:48

yomptepi wrote:But I suspect it will be an even picture everywhere the virus raised its head. And then you will not be able to blame Boris and Govey for the whole thing, despite desperately wanting to.


It's not an equal picture and it won't be when we look back on it.

Taiwan - 10 deaths, New Zealand 26 deaths, Iceland 29, Singapore 30. UK (as present) 126,955
It should have been handled a lot better because we had at least 6 weeks warning from when the huge numbers of deaths came in from Italy and secondly, we're an island (as are the above countries). People were still marching in from airports without checks for weeks and probably months (I can't remember exactly) after we were supposed to be locked down.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 30 Apr 2021, 13:05

The Prof wrote:
yomptepi wrote:But I suspect it will be an even picture everywhere the virus raised its head. And then you will not be able to blame Boris and Govey for the whole thing, despite desperately wanting to.


It's not an equal picture and it won't be when we look back on it.

Taiwan - 10 deaths, New Zealand 26 deaths, Iceland 29, Singapore 30. UK (as present) 126,955
It should have been handled a lot better because we had at least 6 weeks warning from when the huge numbers of deaths came in from Italy and secondly, we're an island (as are the above countries). People were still marching in from airports without checks for weeks and probably months (I can't remember exactly) after we were supposed to be locked down.


Hardly comparable. Anyway, we will see.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 30 Apr 2021, 13:06

Rorschach wrote:
yomptepi wrote:... that is quite as absurd as me blaming Gordon Brown for the world financial meltdown. ( which I still do). ...


Some serious cognitive dissonance going on there, Michael.

As for the rest of your post, apart from you typical and annoying ad hominem straw manning and general bollocks, there is some truth in what you're saying. The UK probably produces the most accurate statistics in the world (thanks to Geezee apparently!) with its methodology producing figures that map extremely closely to excess deaths. It's not simply lying that causes other countries to undercount though; it's more likely to be using different methods which turn out to be less accurate.
For example, in the UK, deaths are counted as Covid deaths for anyone who dies and had tested positive in the last 3 months (I'm making up the length of time because I don't remember but it's something of that order). This means that the UK counts people who catch Covid and then get run over by a bus. On the other hand, they miss people who die of Covid without being diagnosed. It turns out that these numbers are hardly statistically significant and seem to balance each other out.
Other countries, such as Peru, only count people who are diagnosed as having Covid at the time of death and they are reporting about 25% of the numbers of excess deaths (another made up number but, etc.).

However, even taking those facts into account, up to a couple of months ago, the UK was still believed to have a very high death rate per capita among wealthy countries. This position may improve due to a successful vaccination program. We shall see.

But, as I've said before so many times, why do you have to cover your seeds of intelligent analysis under a mountain of manure so big that the rose of truth can never find it's way out?.
Honestly, if you reined in your gammonesque tendencies you could play a valuable part in discussions and more people would invite you over for tea.


Where would the fun in that be?
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Geezee » 30 Apr 2021, 15:51

yomptepi wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:The UK (despite having the most advanced vaccine programme which has absolutely stopped deaths in its tracks the past three months) sits 13th in the world in terms of deaths per million of population. RE : https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries because I actually prefer a few FACTS, not bluster like your good self Michael. The top 12 , you may ask :

Hungary
Gibraltar
Czech Republic
San Marino
Bosnia
Montenegro
Bulgaria
North Macedonia
Slovakia
Belgium
Slovenia
Italy (which has just crept back above the UK after 12 months behind it).

So - which of those would you say has a comparable economy to ours Michael?


So you trust the figures of Russia, India, China, Brazil...I could go on. As I said in my earlier post, I believe that when the dust settles , we will see that the only way this pandemic can be stopped is through vaccination. Now you might want to believe that Russia only had 2000 deaths in the first wave, but in reality it is extremely unlikely. Brazil has been building and filling absolutely huge graveyards, yet reports very few deaths. Even now, when the funeral pyres can be seen from space, India is reporting proportionately few deaths, and the real number is eastimated to be three times higher than it is. As I also said, this is not a race, or a league. Of course it is politically expedient for you to blame one man and his caped assistant for the whole thing, but that is quite as absurd as me blaming Gordon Brown for the world financial meltdown. ( which I still do). Time will tell. No one is suggesting we, or in fact anyone has done well. There are horror stories from all over the world. But I suspect it will be an even picture everywhere the virus raised its head. And then you will not be able to blame Boris and Govey for the whole thing, despite desperately wanting to.


Well Brazil has 400k registered deaths, the 2nd highest globally, India after this weekend will be third. It's true that with India this number is likely higher because of its terrible healthcare system. But ultimately you can usually judge very easily whether a pandemic/epidemic has hit a country through its excess death rates and/or through the state of the hospitals, which are almost impossible to hide. There is nothing in the data coming from Russia or China that indicates that the "real" situation somehow is being disguised.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Geezee » 30 Apr 2021, 16:07

The Prof wrote:
yomptepi wrote:But I suspect it will be an even picture everywhere the virus raised its head. And then you will not be able to blame Boris and Govey for the whole thing, despite desperately wanting to.


It's not an equal picture and it won't be when we look back on it.

Taiwan - 10 deaths, New Zealand 26 deaths, Iceland 29, Singapore 30. UK (as present) 126,955
It should have been handled a lot better because we had at least 6 weeks warning from when the huge numbers of deaths came in from Italy and secondly, we're an island (as are the above countries). People were still marching in from airports without checks for weeks and probably months (I can't remember exactly) after we were supposed to be locked down.


These are all city-states or isolated/self-contained countries - far, far easier to protect yourself from a pandemic, and very little evidence that their strategies had a direct causal effect on their low exposure to the disease. Plenty of other countries pursued the exact same strategy and ended up with bad outbreaks.

It's also worth bearing in mind that the zero tolerance approach to risk means that they also are left far more vulnerable to any outbreak - these countries are also some of the slowest with vaccine rollouts, which means even a small outbreak through the rest of 2021 leads to a complete shut down of the economy again.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Diamond Dog » 02 May 2021, 20:57

yomptepi wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:The UK (despite having the most advanced vaccine programme which has absolutely stopped deaths in its tracks the past three months) sits 13th in the world in terms of deaths per million of population. RE : https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries because I actually prefer a few FACTS, not bluster like your good self Michael. The top 12 , you may ask :

Hungary
Gibraltar
Czech Republic
San Marino
Bosnia
Montenegro
Bulgaria
North Macedonia
Slovakia
Belgium
Slovenia
Italy (which has just crept back above the UK after 12 months behind it).

So - which of those would you say has a comparable economy to ours Michael?


So you trust the figures of Russia, India, China, Brazil...I could go on. As I said in my earlier post, I believe that when the dust settles , we will see that the only way this pandemic can be stopped is through vaccination. Now you might want to believe that Russia only had 2000 deaths in the first wave, but in reality it is extremely unlikely. Brazil has been building and filling absolutely huge graveyards, yet reports very few deaths. Even now, when the funeral pyres can be seen from space, India is reporting proportionately few deaths, and the real number is eastimated to be three times higher than it is. As I also said, this is not a race, or a league. Of course it is politically expedient for you to blame one man and his caped assistant for the whole thing, but that is quite as absurd as me blaming Gordon Brown for the world financial meltdown. ( which I still do). Time will tell. No one is suggesting we, or in fact anyone has done well. There are horror stories from all over the world. But I suspect it will be an even picture everywhere the virus raised its head. And then you will not be able to blame Boris and Govey for the whole thing, despite desperately wanting to.


Yet you continue to make fatuous unsubstantiated claims as you have done since February last year - because you cannot simply face the truth that your hero Johnson fucked up big time, through being a lazy, incompetent sociopathic fuckwit.

When you have some FACTS, come back. Otherwise you really ought to shut the fuck up.
I have put the ignorant, inflammatory bore on ignore.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Deebank » 03 May 2021, 11:18

All a bit rich after the lecture he gave me about speculation.

Of course Johnson was sacked twice for lying and fabricating quotes but he gets a free pass apparently :roll:
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 03 May 2021, 14:17

Deebank wrote:All a bit rich after the lecture he gave me about speculation.

Of course Johnson was sacked twice for lying and fabricating quotes but he gets a free pass apparently :roll:


I don't dispute that Johnson is a liar, or that he is incompetent, or that he has made a bollox of the whole thing. What I do insist is that most of our neighbours have done just as badly , and some , especially France and the Southern European states , have done worse. We count our cases differently. You know that. You understand that. But it is ammunition in your desperate fight to prove to everyone that Corbyn would have saved us entirely from this pandemic. My argument is that very little could have been dne to stop what happened. Maybe a tweak here and there might have have lowered the figures minimally, but it is an airbourne virus, everyone got it, and in the end I believe we will see that there will be a death rate of around 1% of infections everywhere. Your absurd belief that Boris actively encouraged the spread of the virus in order to profit from it is ridiculous. As always, you are just playing politics, and anything that damages the tories is good for you, even if it is blatently untrue. And despite all of your nonsense arguments, you cannot argue with how they procured and distributed the vaccine. Far better than anyone else in the world with a comparable population. Since you are so desperate to condemn, may you caould balance that with occaisionally admitting when things have gone well. ( of course you will find a way of proving that the government had nothing whatsoever to do with any of that, and that it was Corbyn all along who has saved us.)
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 May 2021, 15:08

yomptepi wrote: My argument is that very little could have been dne to stop what happened. Maybe a tweak here and there might have have lowered the figures minimally, but it is an airbourne virus, everyone got it,


Do you actually have any idea how utterly fucking clueless and ill informed you are?

When Johnson sat on his arse/went on a two week holiday/did fuck all for that critical 38 days at the very start of the pandemic - you honestly don't believe there's anything he could/should have done to have stopped the virus spreading uncurtailed throughout the country? You honestly do not think there was any way that that first wave could have been suppressed (even slightly) to give us more chance to a) stop people catching the fucking thing and/or b) get some PPE (which we were still selling to fucking China at the time)? You know - you don't think that introducing control measures may have kept infection rates down and stopped the unnecessary deaths of many thousands? Stopping people from Spain & Italy travelling unabated into the country (you know, the two main European hotspots at the time) may have kept infection rates down? You don't think that the summer madness when there were virtually no controls at all, which lead to the second wave, was reckless in any way? The complete refusal to introduce control measures (when every scientific body in the country was advising the Govt that they had to act now) until just before Xmas - and not the three weeks earlier that everyone knew had to happen- was in any way an abrogation of Johnson's duty?

Honestly - you have no fucking clue. Not one. And your craven defence of your hero makes it even worse Michael, it really does. You're making yourself look like an unthinking/uncaring oaf - and i know you're not that. But, by christ, your refusal to accept Johnson's complete complicity in these unnecessary deaths is completely off the charts. Unfathomable.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Deebank » 03 May 2021, 15:25

The facts speak for themselves. Still the worst death rate in Europe (Italy just behind us) and one of the worst in the world, despite GB being an Island FFS!
Compare to South Korea - a country with both a higher population and a population density than the UK and a land border (although I doubt there is much traffic across that).

The latest figures are here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COVID-19_pandemic_data

Frankly it is difficult to see how the pandemic could have been handled any worse. Admittedly Johnson didn't fuck up the vaccine but that is about it as far as the good news goes.

He went against the science, the scientists and even many of his close advisors (if you believe Cummings) and was slow to lock down and even slower to close the borders. This because of one of his many weaknesses is he wants to be liked. That wanting to be Mr Popular cost probably thousands of lives, that and kow towing to the nutters in his party. Weak and fickle (See his recent short lived support for the Euro super league :lol: he's such a fucking clown).

Test and trace - the key to how countries like New Zealand and South Korea managed the pandemic - was an utter disaster. How many billions did that cost? And much of it flowing into the bank accounts of Tory friends, family and supporters. It is no surprise that Johnson is desperate to avoid any sort of inquiry.

Yes I do reckon Corbyn would have done a better job but honestly that is damning him with the faintest of praise. He may be a useless old codger but at least he has a modicum of empathy and decency.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Samoan » 03 May 2021, 16:21

Deebank wrote: ....

Yes I do reckon Corbyn would have done a better job but honestly that is damning him with the faintest of praise. He may be a useless old codger but at least he has a modicum of empathy and decency.


In reality, it would have been technically and logistically very challenging as Corbyn would have been required to "shield" from Spring 2020, due to his age.

A government can't effectively have constructive pandemic emergency meetings via Skype, Zoom and telephone.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Deebank » 03 May 2021, 17:12

Samoan wrote:
Deebank wrote: ....

Yes I do reckon Corbyn would have done a better job but honestly that is damning him with the faintest of praise. He may be a useless old codger but at least he has a modicum of empathy and decency.


In reality, it would have been technically and logistically very challenging as Corbyn would have been required to "shield" from Spring 2020, due to his age.

A government can't effectively have constructive pandemic emergency meetings via Skype, Zoom and telephone.


Well I’m sure they could have sorted something out.
Corbyn is far from being the most senior MP and he’s probably much fitter and healthier that the fat fuck in No 10.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Diamond Dog » 03 May 2021, 18:28

Samoan wrote:
Deebank wrote: ....

Yes I do reckon Corbyn would have done a better job but honestly that is damning him with the faintest of praise. He may be a useless old codger but at least he has a modicum of empathy and decency.


In reality, it would have been technically and logistically very challenging as Corbyn would have been required to "shield" from Spring 2020, due to his age.

A government can't effectively have constructive pandemic emergency meetings via Skype, Zoom and telephone.


Oh I don't know - Johnson was happy to miss FIVE CONSECUTIVE COBRA MEETINGS in January and February last year, so physically being in the room for 'constructive pandemic emergency meetings' doesn't seem to be a necessity, does it?
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Samoan » 03 May 2021, 19:03

.
Nonsense to the aggressiveness, I've seen more aggression on the my little pony message board......I mean I was told.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 04 May 2021, 09:55

Diamond Dog wrote:
yomptepi wrote: My argument is that very little could have been dne to stop what happened. Maybe a tweak here and there might have have lowered the figures minimally, but it is an airbourne virus, everyone got it,


Do you actually have any idea how utterly fucking clueless and ill informed you are?

When Johnson sat on his arse/went on a two week holiday/did fuck all for that critical 38 days at the very start of the pandemic - you honestly don't believe there's anything he could/should have done to have stopped the virus spreading uncurtailed throughout the country? You honestly do not think there was any way that that first wave could have been suppressed (even slightly) to give us more chance to a) stop people catching the fucking thing and/or b) get some PPE (which we were still selling to fucking China at the time)? You know - you don't think that introducing control measures may have kept infection rates down and stopped the unnecessary deaths of many thousands? Stopping people from Spain & Italy travelling unabated into the country (you know, the two main European hotspots at the time) may have kept infection rates down? You don't think that the summer madness when there were virtually no controls at all, which lead to the second wave, was reckless in any way? The complete refusal to introduce control measures (when every scientific body in the country was advising the Govt that they had to act now) until just before Xmas - and not the three weeks earlier that everyone knew had to happen- was in any way an abrogation of Johnson's duty?

Honestly - you have no fucking clue. Not one. And your craven defence of your hero makes it even worse Michael, it really does. You're making yourself look like an unthinking/uncaring oaf - and i know you're not that. But, by christ, your refusal to accept Johnson's complete complicity in these unnecessary deaths is completely off the charts. Unfathomable.


As always, you have not replied to my comments. preffering instaed to go off on some random rant which complaetely misses the point of everything I said. You really are the Owen Jones of BCB Pete.
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