Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 17 Apr 2021, 14:50

Positive Passion wrote:Accepting that none of these people are saints:

Blair was the best, probably one of Britain's best PMs ever, though messed up massively with Iraq. Many of his govt's policies clearly had the best interests of the country as a whole at heart.


Ubelievable.


You really can get away with anything these days. Next up Hitler, the economic boom years.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby KeithPratt » 17 Apr 2021, 14:52

Discussing the positives and negatives of a policy decision is a grown up way of going about things.

If you are convinced that I framed the discussion in a purely negative light and was not concerned with the positive outcomes at all, then it's not worth carrying on.

In fact you are highlighting precisely the problems that I talked about previously.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Jock » 17 Apr 2021, 14:58

yomptepi wrote:
Positive Passion wrote:Accepting that none of these people are saints:

Blair was the best, probably one of Britain's best PMs ever, though messed up massively with Iraq. Many of his govt's policies clearly had the best interests of the country as a whole at heart.


Ubelievable.


You really can get away with anything these days. Next up Hitler, the economic boom years.

Are you really comparing Blair with Hitler?? FFS Yomp :(
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 17 Apr 2021, 15:05

Jock wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
Positive Passion wrote:Accepting that none of these people are saints:

Blair was the best, probably one of Britain's best PMs ever, though messed up massively with Iraq. Many of his govt's policies clearly had the best interests of the country as a whole at heart.


Ubelievable.


You really can get away with anything these days. Next up Hitler, the economic boom years.

Are you really comparing Blair with Hitler?? FFS Yomp :(


Yes. Don't be ridiculous. But glossing over his criminal activities seems to be how the left live with the cunt. You cannot gloss over his war crimes any more than you can excuse Hitler's antisemitism with the economic miracle he performed in the early 30's. Blair is defined by his war crimes. His economic failures and appalling judgement when it came to economic policy are over shadowed by his war crimes, but they still happened, and we are still paying the price for his hubris and economic incompetence today. He is the worst PM by so far it is almost immeasurable, yet the lefties are determined to bring him in from the cold , and excuse him what they might term his " misdemeanors " Well, I will not.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby KeithPratt » 17 Apr 2021, 15:15

I think Blair had positive intentions over Iraq, but was too arrogant due to past successes to think that it would work without a hitch. Many people thought it was the proper thing to depose Sadaam as he was a murderous tyrant (I did to be fair).

The issue was what happened afterwards, where it became clear soon that there was no plan. The Americans were the driver of this, but for Blair to commit to an invasion without any clear goals for a restructuring of the country was utterly inexcusable and he should not have done so.

He's no Hitler, but it is difficult to get away from the fact that him and Bush were responsible for the hornets nest of sectarian violence that happened after the invasion.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby The Prof » 17 Apr 2021, 15:26

yomptepi wrote:Blair is the worst by a million miles. He destroyed the economy



Destroying the economy whilst simultaneously presiding over the longest period of uninterrupted growth in 200 years.
That's quite some achievement.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby The Prof » 17 Apr 2021, 15:40

KeithPratt wrote:Discussing the positives and negatives of a policy decision is a grown up way of going about things.

If you are convinced that I framed the discussion in a purely negative light and was not concerned with the positive outcomes at all, then it's not worth carrying on.


If you're concerned that some perspective was put on your graphic then you are probably right, it isn't

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 17 Apr 2021, 18:48

The Prof wrote:
yomptepi wrote:Blair is the worst by a million miles. He destroyed the economy



Destroying the economy whilst simultaneously presiding over the longest period of uninterrupted growth in 200 years.
That's quite some achievement.


Easily done when you make borrowing easy and cheap and allow people to borrow 10 x their salary for a mortgage instead of the 3 x which it had been. And then allow them to access the completely notional " equity " in ther houses to buy flash cars and expensive holidays they will be paying for for 25 years.Anyone can increase money supply by heaping massive debt on the taxpayer. That is what made us so vulnerable to the financial crisis. We were massively over exposed due to Blair and Browns incompetence. So one man's longest period of uninterupted growth was another mans financial ruin. Add in the 100 billion dollar cost of his illegal war, and you have a recipe foe a catastrophe. Which happened and was his fault.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Geezee » 17 Apr 2021, 20:06

KeithPratt wrote:Johnson - Won the strongest Tory majority since Thatcher and won seats in the North that virtually no Tory PM would ever have imagined previously. Was extremely lucky to be up against Corbyn in the election and a Liberal party so weak no-one could tell you who their leader was. It appears that he gambled enormously on the vaccines working and that, at the moment, seems to be making up for disasters early on during Covid. If the vaccines had not worked, then I believe that we could have been looking at him resigning. Confidence in his govt is helped somewhat by the attitude of the EU in the last few months and their current vaccine imbroglio. He's popular, and whatever anyone on here says, people like him despite flagrant personal behaviour issues and the fact that he's not even a Conservative at heart. One suspects that a crisis is never far away from him, but I wouldn't be surprised if he called an election in 2022, year or two early, if he felt he could win.


People in the UK do know that the UK’s vaccination campaign - contrary to all others in the west - was not a vaccination campaign but rather a massive clinical trial on its population right? The spaced out dosing strategy was a *massive* gamble, going against the entire clinical development programme of the vaccine and what they were approved for. And the vaccines themselves were not approved through a proper regulatory process - the Uk has not had a proper medicines approval agency for 45 years - so the only reason the UK was “first” to approve these vaccines is because they basically rubber stamped them, hoping for the best. And of course the only reason the UKs vaccines are moderately ahead of most other countries (although behind most of Europe if you, as you should, count people who are fully vaccinated) is because they have banned exports of vaccines while Europe has exported around 30% of its supply. There is not one part of the UKs response to COvid that has not been messy, amateurish and flying in the face of science.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 17 Apr 2021, 20:12

Geezee wrote:
KeithPratt wrote:Johnson - Won the strongest Tory majority since Thatcher and won seats in the North that virtually no Tory PM would ever have imagined previously. Was extremely lucky to be up against Corbyn in the election and a Liberal party so weak no-one could tell you who their leader was. It appears that he gambled enormously on the vaccines working and that, at the moment, seems to be making up for disasters early on during Covid. If the vaccines had not worked, then I believe that we could have been looking at him resigning. Confidence in his govt is helped somewhat by the attitude of the EU in the last few months and their current vaccine imbroglio. He's popular, and whatever anyone on here says, people like him despite flagrant personal behaviour issues and the fact that he's not even a Conservative at heart. One suspects that a crisis is never far away from him, but I wouldn't be surprised if he called an election in 2022, year or two early, if he felt he could win.


People in the UK do know that the UK’s vaccination campaign - contrary to all others in the west - was not a vaccination campaign but rather a massive clinical trial on its population right? The spaced out dosing strategy was a *massive* gamble, going against the entire clinical development programme of the vaccine and what they were approved for. And the vaccines themselves were not approved through a proper regulatory process - the Uk has not had a proper medicines approval agency for 45 years - so the only reason the UK was “first” to approve these vaccines is because they basically rubber stamped them, hoping for the best. And of course the only reason the UKs vaccines are moderately ahead of most other countries (although behind most of Europe if you, as you should, count people who are fully vaccinated) is because they have banned exports of vaccines while Europe has exported around 30% of its supply. There is not one part of the UKs response to COvid that has not been messy, amateurish and flying in the face of science.
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also the Queen is a lizard and Joe Biden has been dead for two months.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Rorschach » 18 Apr 2021, 11:09

yomptepi wrote:
Geezee wrote:
People in the UK do know that the UK’s vaccination campaign - contrary to all others in the west - was not a vaccination campaign but rather a massive clinical trial on its population right? The spaced out dosing strategy was a *massive* gamble, going against the entire clinical development programme of the vaccine and what they were approved for. And the vaccines themselves were not approved through a proper regulatory process - the Uk has not had a proper medicines approval agency for 45 years - so the only reason the UK was “first” to approve these vaccines is because they basically rubber stamped them, hoping for the best. And of course the only reason the UKs vaccines are moderately ahead of most other countries (although behind most of Europe if you, as you should, count people who are fully vaccinated) is because they have banned exports of vaccines while Europe has exported around 30% of its supply. There is not one part of the UKs response to COvid that has not been messy, amateurish and flying in the face of science.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

also the Queen is a lizard and Joe Biden has been dead for two months.


Very clever argument, all those emojis followed by a sarcastic comment. That's got Geezee gripped in the iron jaws of reason.

I think what he says is largely correct. It was pretty certain that the vaccines would be OK but they didn't apply rigorous standards in testing in the UK that they did in other parts of the world. They got away with this time but if they'd been unlucky it could have turned out to be another thalidomide. You know that thalidomide didn't affect the USA, don't you? It never got approval because they required more rigorous testing.

Maybe you wouldn't be laughing so hard if that had happened with the AstraZeneca vaccine, you buffoon.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 18 Apr 2021, 11:46

Rorschach wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
Geezee wrote:
People in the UK do know that the UK’s vaccination campaign - contrary to all others in the west - was not a vaccination campaign but rather a massive clinical trial on its population right? The spaced out dosing strategy was a *massive* gamble, going against the entire clinical development programme of the vaccine and what they were approved for. And the vaccines themselves were not approved through a proper regulatory process - the Uk has not had a proper medicines approval agency for 45 years - so the only reason the UK was “first” to approve these vaccines is because they basically rubber stamped them, hoping for the best. And of course the only reason the UKs vaccines are moderately ahead of most other countries (although behind most of Europe if you, as you should, count people who are fully vaccinated) is because they have banned exports of vaccines while Europe has exported around 30% of its supply. There is not one part of the UKs response to COvid that has not been messy, amateurish and flying in the face of science.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

also the Queen is a lizard and Joe Biden has been dead for two months.


Very clever argument, all those emojis followed by a sarcastic comment. That's got Geezee gripped in the iron jaws of reason.

I think what he says is largely correct. It was pretty certain that the vaccines would be OK but they didn't apply rigorous standards in testing in the UK that they did in other parts of the world. They got away with this time but if they'd been unlucky it could have turned out to be another thalidomide. You know that thalidomide didn't affect the USA, don't you? It never got approval because they required more rigorous testing.

Maybe you wouldn't be laughing so hard if that had happened with the AstraZeneca vaccine, you buffoon.


Which would all be well and good if it weren't for the fact that Europe wasn't hesistant, it simply forgot to order any vaccines. The complete failure of the EU, and the lazy corrupt and smug governments therein in to act quickly has left them looking weak and incompetent.And if you want to argue about trials, then the shortest trial of a similar vaccine should be five years. Do you see those brilliant and cleverer than everyone else eurpean bureaucrats all waiting five years? Are they? No they fucking well are not. They have started jabbing at the first opportunity, as soon as the vaccines that they failed to order arrived. So Geezee's point is utter bollocks , as is your support of it. That is why I have had a vaccine, and you probably won't get yours until after xmas.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby KeithPratt » 18 Apr 2021, 12:12

In a time of crisis, governments often need to move quickly without bureaucracy. The UK Government could be accused of cutting corners in its vaccine strategy. But a global pandemic that threatens to destabilise countries and economies is a different matter altogether.

Europe abides, in the main, by the precautionary principle where everything is tested thoroughly before it can be used. In many situations, this is a worthwhile and thoughtful philosophy. In others, it could be argued, it is not. This is one of those situations.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Rorschach » 18 Apr 2021, 13:22

KeithPratt wrote:In a time of crisis, governments often need to move quickly without bureaucracy. The UK Government could be accused of cutting corners in its vaccine strategy. But a global pandemic that threatens to destabilise countries and economies is a different matter altogether.

Europe abides, in the main, by the precautionary principle where everything is tested thoroughly before it can be used. In many situations, this is a worthwhile and thoughtful philosophy. In others, it could be argued, it is not. This is one of those situations.


In fact, I agree that the EU needed to act much faster and is continuing to fuck up by being so scared of active risk that they are massively multiplying passive risk with potentially terrifying consequences. More or less for the reason you mention with an added twist of political cowardice and all round incompetence.

But, if the AstraZeneca vaccine had turned out to be another thalidomide, and it could have done, I don't believe anyone here would be arguing that the British government had done the right thing.

It's not a simple matter. Geezee's comments were intelligent and thoughtful, whether you agree with them or not. Yomp's were not.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Rorschach » 18 Apr 2021, 13:24

yomptepi wrote: That is why I have had a vaccine, and you probably won't get yours until after xmas.


Ooh, nasty!

I've had my first jab, second one due in a few weeks.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby KeithPratt » 18 Apr 2021, 14:11

Of course it's not a simple matter. The UK gambled and it turned out to be a success (so far).

Countries that are risk-taking are generally likely to innovate (that is why there are no EU companies in the top part of the stock market), which is why Britain's extrication from the EU is important for the country's future - we are a country that is shown to innovate and when the history of the Covid-19 pandemic is written, the UK's phenomenal genome sequencing ability (we have more capability than the rest of the world put together) will be at the heart of how we reacted to the various mutations.

Many would rather have the soothing balm of the EU, which is totally understandable, but what has happened over the last few months shows that there are different ways of doing things and that the desire to be free of (often very worthwhile) legislation and bureaucracy that being in the EU entails can have rewards just as there are risks being outside too.

What I hope happens is that the political ill will shown to Britain over Brexit subsides over time because, ultimately, it does no-one any favours. A poorer Britain will negatively impact the EU due to the sheer amount of trade between the two entities, just as a richer, more prosperous Britain will benefit the EU.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 18 Apr 2021, 15:06

Rorschach wrote:
KeithPratt wrote:In a time of crisis, governments often need to move quickly without bureaucracy. The UK Government could be accused of cutting corners in its vaccine strategy. But a global pandemic that threatens to destabilise countries and economies is a different matter altogether.

Europe abides, in the main, by the precautionary principle where everything is tested thoroughly before it can be used. In many situations, this is a worthwhile and thoughtful philosophy. In others, it could be argued, it is not. This is one of those situations.


In fact, I agree that the EU needed to act much faster and is continuing to fuck up by being so scared of active risk that they are massively multiplying passive risk with potentially terrifying consequences. More or less for the reason you mention with an added twist of political cowardice and all round incompetence.

But, if the AstraZeneca vaccine had turned out to be another thalidomide, and it could have done, I don't believe anyone here would be arguing that the British government had done the right thing.

It's not a simple matter. Geezee's comments were intelligent and thoughtful, whether you agree with them or not. Yomp's were not.


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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Rorschach » 18 Apr 2021, 18:13

:o
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby jimboo » 18 Apr 2021, 18:14

KeithPratt wrote:Of course it's not a simple matter. The UK gambled and it turned out to be a success (so far).

Countries that are risk-taking are generally likely to innovate (that is why there are no EU companies in the top part of the stock market),
.


Is this true? Are you including Anglo Dutch/Swiss / Swedish companies and multinationals as proof of British economic power ?
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Rorschach » 18 Apr 2021, 18:19

jimboo wrote:
KeithPratt wrote:Of course it's not a simple matter. The UK gambled and it turned out to be a success (so far).

Countries that are risk-taking are generally likely to innovate (that is why there are no EU companies in the top part of the stock market),
.


Is this true? Are you including Anglo Dutch/Swiss / Swedish companies and multinationals as proof of British economic power ?


The depressing things about this are, a) he actually believes this little England jingoistic crap and b) so do a lot of English people.

And that bit about ‘the political Ill will shown to Britain over Brexit’, makes you wonder if he might possibly be a Telegraph reader.
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