Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby The Prof » 16 Apr 2021, 15:09

Put these rogues in order.

1. Blair
2. Brown
3. Cameron
4. May
5. Johnson.

You've got to offset the achievements with the mistakes. The good with the bad

How do you order them?

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Deebank » 16 Apr 2021, 16:00

Worst to best:

Johnson
Cameron
May
Blair
Brown

Brown the best... 'In the realm of the blind' and all that...

Edit: I Just realised that's a pretty good joke! :lol:
Last edited by Deebank on 16 Apr 2021, 17:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby The Prof » 16 Apr 2021, 16:30

That's probably what I would say.. but Johnson? worse than Brexit? Oooooh The jury's out.


I see Yomp has gone shopping for records with Jumper K this afternoon.
I'm hoping this thread will be a nice little surprise for him when he gets back.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby KeithPratt » 16 Apr 2021, 16:49

Blair was a genius at being in power. The Good Friday Agreement probably remains one of his finest achievements, but it was a multi-party thing in many respects and if the IRA hadn't been infiltrated to the extent it was over the previous decade, then it wouldn't have happened I suspect. Iraq obviously was a disaster. Devolution looks like it has lost the Labour party any chance of being in power ever again at the moment because it gave the Nationalists Scotland. In the long run I think Blair's time will be seen as a continuation of the Thatcher years, allowing mass immigration and all the benefits and problems that caused but also a lot of spending in vital areas such as education. The first Blair cabinet was arguably the greatest of the last 30 years or so. Three Election victories and 10 years in power, but disasters in foreign policy and long-term decision making that probably caused Brexit unintentionally and the enfeebling of the Labour party itself.

Brown managed the financial crisis as best he could and in time I suspect his reputation will be bolstered by that in the long term. He was utterly uninspiring as a leader, not helped by having to follow Blair. He was never really a politician at all, more a technocrat. A dreadful communicator. Would never have been PM if Blair hadn't resigned.

Cameron is easily the worst of the lot in terms of policies - "Dave" FFS. Him and Osborne were everything that is wrong with liberal conservatism - a wishy, washy, sleek, technocratism that filled the pockets of his mates and little else. The Big Society was an interesting nod to Burkean principles, but achieved little. In terms of the Tory party, I don't think there would be people like Sunak, Patel, Kwarteng et al in the upper echelons of the party if it wasn't for him in fairness. He pushed a lot for a more diverse Conservative party. Didn't even have the guts to carry on after the Referendum, which I thought was terribly weak, but probably the best decision. Won an election, which repairs his reputation a little.

May - the less said the better, but I think in more moderate, less excitable times she may have prospered as a more traditional Tory in terms of fiscal government. Her time was completely swallowed up by Brexit and she suffered from the fact that as a Remainer, she had played her hand in negotiations before she even got to the table. Did disastrously against Corbyn in an election despite the man being an anti-semite/IRA sympathiser, which tells you everything you need to know.

Johnson - Won the strongest Tory majority since Thatcher and won seats in the North that virtually no Tory PM would ever have imagined previously. Was extremely lucky to be up against Corbyn in the election and a Liberal party so weak no-one could tell you who their leader was. It appears that he gambled enormously on the vaccines working and that, at the moment, seems to be making up for disasters early on during Covid. If the vaccines had not worked, then I believe that we could have been looking at him resigning. Confidence in his govt is helped somewhat by the attitude of the EU in the last few months and their current vaccine imbroglio. He's popular, and whatever anyone on here says, people like him despite flagrant personal behaviour issues and the fact that he's not even a Conservative at heart. One suspects that a crisis is never far away from him, but I wouldn't be surprised if he called an election in 2022, year or two early, if he felt he could win.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Rorschach » 16 Apr 2021, 16:53

I'm in a hurry. No time for this right now.

The Prof wrote:I see Yomp has gone shopping for records with Jumper K this afternoon.
I'm hoping this thread will be a nice little surprise for him when he gets back.


Oh well, in that case:

Blair
Brown



Cameron


May










Johnson

I do think Brown was partly responsible for the crash. His payment holidays for the pension funds was not a good idea, though he wasn't the first to do it (which Yomp will presumably ignore). But he and Blair did have some positive achievements. Cameron even had one or two. May was just out of her depth.
Johnson is in a class of his own in terms of incompetence, malfeasance and malevolent intent.
Bugger off.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby der Freiherr » 16 Apr 2021, 22:37

KeithPratt wrote:In the long run I think Blair's time will be seen as a continuation of the Thatcher years, allowing mass immigration and all the benefits and problems that caused ...


I’ve never heard the term “mass immigration” before. Is it a term of art specific to UK or European politics? What does it mean?
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby mudshark » 16 Apr 2021, 23:05

I think it's some sort of STD.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby KeithPratt » 17 Apr 2021, 07:04

Dr. Baron wrote:
KeithPratt wrote:In the long run I think Blair's time will be seen as a continuation of the Thatcher years, allowing mass immigration and all the benefits and problems that caused ...


I’ve never heard the term “mass immigration” before. Is it a term of art specific to UK or European politics? What does it mean?


Image

That net immigration has exceeded migration from the UK by over 100,000 every year since 1998.

The above graph shows that from the 60s to the 90s, the number of people migrating and emigrating to and from the UK remained roughly the same, and that at times, the number migrating was higher. However, that changed significantly from the late 90s. If you consider that Britain is a small land mass, the emergence of a number of people living in the country equivalent to a town the size of, say, Reading (population 95000) every year is going to have an impact somewhere.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby The Prof » 17 Apr 2021, 10:07

What that graph doesn't show is how many of the 'migrants' have come to the UK to study and are in full time eduction.

Nearly 40% of that figure in case you were wondering.

That's an awful lot of cash to the Universities for studies.

32% come to work. That's even more money from tax into the Treasury.

and it doesn't mean to say that all the rest are claiming 'our benefits' or clogging up the NHS. Asylum seekers make up around 6% of all migrants to the UK. Mostly fleeing from Syria and we know why that is.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Rorschach » 17 Apr 2021, 10:30

The Prof wrote:What that graph doesn't show is how many of the 'migrants' have come to the UK to study and are in full time eduction.

Nearly 40% of that figure in case you were wondering.

That's an awful lot of cash to the Universities for studies.

32% come to work. That's even more money from tax into the Treasury.

and it doesn't mean to say that all the rest are claiming 'our benefits' or clogging up the NHS. Asylum seekers make up around 6% of all migrants to the UK. Mostly fleeing from Syria and we know why that is.


Thanks for providing the breakdown, (so I don't have to bother looking it up). Simple but important facts that often get lost in the heat of the debate surrounding the issue.

Just to be clear, Toby wasn't denying any of this. He made a point of mentioning 'the benefits and problems that caused'.
Personally, I see it as mostly beneficial, and Spain could do with a lot more immigrants, and policies to help integrate them better. On the other hand, whenever I arrive in the UK on a Friday and hit the roads I wonder how the hell you could fit any more people in the country. The traffic is bumper to bumper everywhere I go.
Bugger off.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby The Prof » 17 Apr 2021, 10:41

Rorschach wrote:
Just to be clear, Toby wasn't denying any of this. He made a point of mentioning 'the benefits and problems that caused'.


As they say, you can prove anything with statistics. The term “mass immigration” is quite a loaded and negative one.

Combined with a graph and no explanation.....well.....you wouldn't want anyone to mistakenly thing he was putting forward some reactionary right-wing bullshit.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Rorschach » 17 Apr 2021, 10:46

The Prof wrote:
Rorschach wrote:
Just to be clear, Toby wasn't denying any of this. He made a point of mentioning 'the benefits and problems that caused'.


As they say, you can prove anything with statistics. The term “mass immigration” is quite a loaded and negative one.

Combined with a graph and no explanation.....well.....you wouldn't want anyone to mistakenly thing he was putting forward some reactionary right-wing bullshit.


Good point, well made.
Bugger off.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 17 Apr 2021, 12:12

Deebank wrote:Worst to best:

Johnson
Cameron
May
Blair
Brown

Brown the best... 'In the realm of the blind' and all that...

Edit: I Just realised that's a pretty good joke! :lol:


This is how terrorists get and hold on to power. The idea that Brexit is on a parallel with the Iraq war in some people minds shows us , clearly, how radicalisation works.
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby The Prof » 17 Apr 2021, 12:13

........and he's back!

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby yomptepi » 17 Apr 2021, 12:22

The Prof wrote:Put these rogues in order.

1. Blair
2. Brown
3. Cameron
4. May
5. Johnson.

You've got to offset the achievements with the mistakes. The good with the bad

How do you order them?


They are, to a man, a disgrace. I think, looking back, that May got an impossible portfolio to contend with, and never really had a chance to carry out any policies. The others are all criminals. Blair is the worst by a million miles. He destroyed the economy, introduced the minimum wage, encouraged out of control personel borrowing and lied to parliament on a daily basis. Brown was his enabler and co conspiritor. The others were just criminally incompetent, rather than criminal.( although Cameron seems to be making a late play for a prison sentence)
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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby kath » 17 Apr 2021, 12:36

Dr. Baron wrote:I’ve never heard the term “mass immigration” before. Is it a term of art specific to UK or European politics? What does it mean?


The Prof wrote:As they say, you can prove anything with statistics. The term “mass immigration” is quite a loaded and negative one.

Combined with a graph and no explanation.....well.....you wouldn't want anyone to mistakenly thing he was putting forward some reactionary right-wing bullshit.


the term is used the same way here in the states. marjorie taylor greene, louis gohmert and paul gosar, three of the vilest, dumbest and most racist members of congress, have formed a white nationalist group called the america first caucus, to champion "anglo-saxon political traditions and warn that mass immigration is putting the unique identity of the US at risk..." oh, and matt gaetz has joined in. bigoted, white supremacist fucquers.

i like ted lieu's response: "take yer nativist crap and shove it."

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby Positive Passion » 17 Apr 2021, 13:17

Accepting that none of these people are saints:

Blair was the best, probably one of Britain's best PMs ever, though messed up massively with Iraq. Many of his govt's policies clearly had the best interests of the country as a whole at heart.
Brown perhaps could have been a good PM, but had the financial crisis and the Iraq fallout to deal with.
Cameron was not really a leader at all, and thought that he could bolster support by getting the public to decide for him. Which they did.
May was handed the poisoned chalice, but also did not have enough guts or (probably) support within her party to put the country back on course.
Johnson is a self-absorbed opportunist who will do whatever is necessary to benefit himself and his friends.

So best to worst:
Blair
Brown

Then the Tories all quite a long way back, but if I had to put them in order:
May
Johnson
Cameron.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby KeithPratt » 17 Apr 2021, 13:51

The Prof wrote:
Rorschach wrote:
Just to be clear, Toby wasn't denying any of this. He made a point of mentioning 'the benefits and problems that caused'.


As they say, you can prove anything with statistics. The term “mass immigration” is quite a loaded and negative one.

Combined with a graph and no explanation.....well.....you wouldn't want anyone to mistakenly thing he was putting forward some reactionary right-wing bullshit.



I wasn't attempting to prove anything. When net immigration moves from around 10,000 individuals to around 250,000 - 300,000, that's a change in size of over 500%. It has an impact whatever you think of the connotations surrounding the term. Measuring that impact is harder to gauge, and has both positive and negative outcomes. There are tangible success stories concerning immigration, particularly for the economy, just as there are, inevitably, negative ones as well.

Immigration is a complex but important subject, particularly for a country like Britain, yet one that was effectively swept out of the Overton Window with damaging long-term consequences because, ultimately, it was a foundational element of Brexit. If immigration hadn't increased in the size it did, then I suspect that there wouldn't have been an EU Referendum because UKIP simply wouldn't have had the political traction it went on to have.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby The Prof » 17 Apr 2021, 14:38

KeithPratt wrote:
I wasn't attempting to prove anything


Yes you were, you were using a graph to prove that a mass of people (the size of Reading) were arriving in the UK every year framed in a negative way. "Britain is a small land mass", "going to have an impact somewhere".
When it becomes clear that a large percentage are studying and working I would say it puts a different light the way you used the graphic.

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Re: Rate the last 5 UK Prime Ministers

Postby KeithPratt » 17 Apr 2021, 14:48

I also highlighted the economic benefits too, but you chose to ignore that one on purpose I guess.