RIP Phil the Greek

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 69276
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby Diamond Dog » 13 Apr 2021, 15:29

KeithPratt wrote:It represents an ideal, even if it very often is anything but in actual reality.


To whom and what 'ideal' is represented?
I have put the ignorant, inflammatory bore on ignore.

User avatar
KeithPratt
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23884
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby KeithPratt » 13 Apr 2021, 16:47

Well I thought that was obvious - they are meant to represent the ideal of the family to the rest of the population, just as a King or Queen in older times would be a Paragon of what it is to be a person.

User avatar
GoogaMooga
custodian of oldies
Posts: 27790
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 05:23
Location: Denmark

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby GoogaMooga » 13 Apr 2021, 16:57

I read somewhere many years ago, that Prince Charles may be skipped in the line of succession in favor of William when the Queen dies.
"When the desert comes, people will be sad; just as Cannery Row was sad when all the pilchards were caught and canned and eaten." - John Steinbeck

User avatar
mudshark
Posts: 581
Joined: 25 Jul 2003, 03:51

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby mudshark » 13 Apr 2021, 17:46

If the royal family of a certain country represents an ideal then at least that family must have given the country and its people something to be proud of. I'd say that's the case in the Scandinavian countries (WW-II), but the Dutch royal family has not done anything to deserve respect or admiration. In fact, they've been illegitimate for centuries: when William III of Orange (Dutch king of England, Ireland and Scotland back in the 17th century) died he had no children. The Dutch dug up some bastard nephew from (surprise!) Germany and put him in charge. There is no direct lineage with the house of Orange and that German bastard. He proved to be a philanderer and a scoundrel, as did his son, grandson etc. etc. There's been no concrete contribution to the well-being of the country. On the contrary: one of the Williams briefly tried to stage a coup in order to prevent parliament to curtail his powers in 1848 (the year the current Dutch constitution became law). When Napoleon occupied Holland, then-William I fled to England, and when Hitler took over then-queen Wilhelmina fled to... England. Both were welcomed back with open arms. Why? I haven't got the foggiest. If John Cleese in Life of Brian would have asked "what have the Oranges ever done for us?" it wouldn't have been funny because there wouldn't have been a response. Fortunately there are more and more people that want the country to go back to become a republic.

The Belgian royal house (surprisingly of German origin) has been a criminal organisation from day one (Leopold in the Congo), and as for the British royalty: I've read some Shakespeare, watched "Victoria" and tried to watch (and largely failed) the Windsors. I don't think any of the royal characters have drummed up much admiration for them in me.
There's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over

User avatar
KeithPratt
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23884
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby KeithPratt » 13 Apr 2021, 18:30

I don't really "admire" the (British) Royal Family in any real way either. However, it's all moot, because many people do, otherwise they simply wouldn't be there.

Support for an unelected Head of State in the UK is around 60% according to YouGov, although this drops off to around 45% with people under the age of 25.

User avatar
Rorschach
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Jun 2008, 12:43

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby Rorschach » 13 Apr 2021, 18:40

KeithPratt wrote:Well I thought that was obvious - they are meant to represent the ideal of the family to the rest of the population, just as a King or Queen in older times would be a Paragon of what it is to be a person.


You're so quaint.

You probably think I'm making this up but every time I see one of your posts, the words 'And is there honey still for tea?' spring unbidden into my mind.

And it's strange for me to see what you consider obvious. I sincerely had no idea that that the royals were supposed to represent the ideal of the family. If that is the case then I think they should definitely be fired for incompetence. And I have no idea what 'a Paragon of what it is to be a person' is supposed to mean.
Bugger off.

User avatar
KeithPratt
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23884
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby KeithPratt » 13 Apr 2021, 18:58

Why are there Monarchs?

Because centuries ago men produced some sort of noble quality that elevated them above their peers, usually through some sort of martial ability or achievement, or that they helped to produce prosperity of sorts. Why else would they exist? They sustained that legitimacy through their rulership, tradition and offspring down the years. Through stability, that legitimacy endured and grew. Alfred the Great and Athelstan are probably the best examples of that, uniting the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms.

Part of the British Royal Family's success as it were is that they have produced an illusion of unchanged tradition that can go back centuries even if it clearly isn't the case once you peer past the thin veil of pageantry. It's a masterclass of PR.

User avatar
KeithPratt
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23884
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby KeithPratt » 13 Apr 2021, 19:05

In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox.

There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.”

To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.

User avatar
pcqgod
Posts: 18575
Joined: 11 Apr 2010, 07:23
Location: Ohio

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby pcqgod » 13 Apr 2021, 22:11

I heard one of his grandsons on the news eulogizing him as "Master of the Barbecue." Quite a legacy.
Where would rock 'n' roll be without feedback?

User avatar
Rorschach
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Jun 2008, 12:43

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby Rorschach » 14 Apr 2021, 07:06

KeithPratt wrote:In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox.

There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.”

To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.


Ooh look! A fatuous quote from someone or other!

I think we all know who Toby considers to be 'the more intelligent type of reformer' around here, so we may as well all give up. I mean, once you start doubting a fatuous quote from someone or other, all discussion descends into chaos and anarchy and Toby wouldn't like that. He likes everything to still be like the vicarage he was brought up in, in the early 1900s.

And is there honey still for tea?

In Tobyland, there had jolly well better be!
Bugger off.

User avatar
Geezee
Posts: 12758
Joined: 24 Jul 2003, 10:14
Location: Where joy divides into vision

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby Geezee » 14 Apr 2021, 08:08

mudshark wrote:If the royal family of a certain country represents an ideal then at least that family must have given the country and its people something to be proud of. I'd say that's the case in the Scandinavian countries (WW-II), but the Dutch royal family has not done anything to deserve respect or admiration. In fact, they've been illegitimate for centuries: when William III of Orange (Dutch king of England, Ireland and Scotland back in the 17th century) died he had no children. The Dutch dug up some bastard nephew from (surprise!) Germany and put him in charge. There is no direct lineage with the house of Orange and that German bastard. He proved to be a philanderer and a scoundrel, as did his son, grandson etc. etc. There's been no concrete contribution to the well-being of the country. On the contrary: one of the Williams briefly tried to stage a coup in order to prevent parliament to curtail his powers in 1848 (the year the current Dutch constitution became law). When Napoleon occupied Holland, then-William I fled to England, and when Hitler took over then-queen Wilhelmina fled to... England. Both were welcomed back with open arms. Why? I haven't got the foggiest. If John Cleese in Life of Brian would have asked "what have the Oranges ever done for us?" it wouldn't have been funny because there wouldn't have been a response. Fortunately there are more and more people that want the country to go back to become a republic.

The Belgian royal house (surprisingly of German origin) has been a criminal organisation from day one (Leopold in the Congo), and as for the British royalty: I've read some Shakespeare, watched "Victoria" and tried to watch (and largely failed) the Windsors. I don't think any of the royal characters have drummed up much admiration for them in me.


By and large the Swedish royal family has survived through its utter irrelevance. The current royals are generally just seen as a fairly normal family and are neither ostentatious nor comparatively expensive - their main function is to a) go to sports tournaments and support the Swedish team (dressed in normal/inconspicuous clothes) b) oversee the Nobel Prize ceremony and c) provide a bit of fodder for the elderly in Ostermalm who still read Damernas Varld (a gossip magazine). They also get sympathy points because the current king's father died in a plane crash, and benefit from not being rolled up into "for King/Queen and Country" patriotism that plagues so many countries - there is nothing about them in the national anthem, and any imperialism wrapped up into the monarchy is at least 400 years old. The Social Democrats (who have dominated swedish politics for 80 years) have an explicit agenda to remove the monarchy, but always end up walking away from the issue because it would alienate the centre-right too much and sweden is a consensus-driven country (the counterpoint issue for the centre-right is joining Nato, which they always walk away from because they do not want to alienate the centre-left). It is a complete aberration and an embarrassment that Sweden still holds on to this archaic waste of money.
Smilies are ON
Flash is OFF
Url is ON

User avatar
KeithPratt
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23884
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby KeithPratt » 14 Apr 2021, 08:45

Why is there a roughly 60% support for an unelected head of state in the UK?

Is it that tedious old chestnut of 'most people are stupid' and that only enlightened people would not want it?

When you can answer that, then maybe we can proceed.

Things that may appear anachronistic generally have a function of sorts because why else would they exist in the first place?

User avatar
Jimbly
Posts: 21558
Joined: 21 Jul 2003, 23:17
Location: ????

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby Jimbly » 14 Apr 2021, 09:12

There is a difference between 60% wanting an unelected head of state and the servile nonsense that surrounds the Royal Family.

That they are held up to be some shining example is preposterous. I understand the Queen's sense of duty to her role but that's no different to other people's dedication to what they see as their role.

The working monarchies in Europe would I hope be something we would eventually move towards. There is the recognised head of state and spouse and everybody else in the family has a normal working life. Get rid of the self entitlement that the likes of the Queen Mother and Prince Andrew see as their due reward.

If there is no shift then they will eventually drift into irrelevance.
Image So Long Kid, Take A Bow.

Positive Passion
Posts: 1615
Joined: 05 Jul 2017, 23:05

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby Positive Passion » 14 Apr 2021, 10:57

KeithPratt wrote:Why is there a roughly 60% support for an unelected head of state in the UK?



Mark Steel in one his The Mark Steel Solution programmes suggested every family should be the Royal family for a week (chosen by lottery). I reckon there is some mileage in it.

User avatar
The Prof
Trading coffee in Abyssinia
Posts: 46090
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 18:32
Location: A Metropolis of Discontent

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby The Prof » 14 Apr 2021, 11:02

GoogaMooga wrote:I read somewhere many years ago, that Prince Charles may be skipped in the line of succession in favor of William when the Queen dies.

Probably wishful thinking by a few letter writers in the Daily Mail.

Positive Passion
Posts: 1615
Joined: 05 Jul 2017, 23:05

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby Positive Passion » 14 Apr 2021, 11:04

Jimbly wrote: I understand the Queen's sense of duty to her role but that's no different to other people's dedication to what they see as their role.


It seems to me she has no idea what her role is, as evidenced by her failure to sack a government found to have unlawfully tried to circumvent parliament in 2019. If ever a monarch was supposed to exercise her residual constitutional powers, that was it.

Positive Passion
Posts: 1615
Joined: 05 Jul 2017, 23:05

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby Positive Passion » 14 Apr 2021, 11:10

The Prof wrote:
GoogaMooga wrote:I read somewhere many years ago, that Prince Charles may be skipped in the line of succession in favor of William when the Queen dies.

Probably wishful thinking by a few letter writers in the Daily Mail.


Probably - it certainly misses the point that any such arrangement would have to sorted out before queen dies, as Chas becomes king upon the instant of her death.
However if I were in Chas's shoes, I would be inclined to be king for a year or two, but not be crowned, and then abdicate in favour of Bill.

User avatar
GoogaMooga
custodian of oldies
Posts: 27790
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 05:23
Location: Denmark

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby GoogaMooga » 14 Apr 2021, 11:34

The British Royal Family has weathered scandals, wars, and fires. I'd expected their support in the UK to be somewhat higher, but 60% is still a clear majority. The Danish monarchy is massively popular, even with young people. It may have to do with the fact that it is the oldest and longest-running monarchy, at least in the modern sense of the word, and ties in with our love of the flag and other symbols. We are reduced to a population of 5.8 million, and so are perhaps a little more protective of our culture and heritage. I don't think you should underestimate the value of having a "royal family", why are the Americans so obsessed with the Kennedys and Camelot? A modern monarchy and the tradition, continuity, and social cohesion that comes with it it can be of great value. It can't all be measured in exports and the money and wealth generated. But it could definitely do with a bit of trimming and downsizing if it is to survive with the people's support.
"When the desert comes, people will be sad; just as Cannery Row was sad when all the pilchards were caught and canned and eaten." - John Steinbeck

User avatar
Jimbly
Posts: 21558
Joined: 21 Jul 2003, 23:17
Location: ????

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby Jimbly » 14 Apr 2021, 11:46

Its 60% for an unelected head of state not the Royal family as such.
Image So Long Kid, Take A Bow.

Positive Passion
Posts: 1615
Joined: 05 Jul 2017, 23:05

Re: RIP Phil the Greek

Postby Positive Passion » 14 Apr 2021, 11:57

GoogaMooga wrote:. The Danish monarchy is massively popular, even with young people. It may have to do with the fact that it is the oldest and longest-running monarchy, at least in the modern sense of the word, and ties in with our love of the flag and other symbols.


No - it is your Australian princess.