Your Opinion On This?

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks

Your Opinion?

Agree
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Somewhere In The Middle.
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Disagree
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100%
 
Total votes: 4

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bobzilla77
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby bobzilla77 » 27 Jan 2018, 17:18

The Great Defector wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote:So Markus is now stealth quoting alt right assholes on the board. Hooray for freedom.


So because I posted this It automatically means I agree with it? Also "stealth"? easy there jimbo.


I didn't say you agreed with it, I said you were quoting it. You did quote it.

Stand up for your actions or think about whether you might do better next time.
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby take5_d_shorterer » 27 Jan 2018, 17:23

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I don’t see how you get to the constitution deriving its power from the people without first accepting that the people have rights.



The Constitution derives its power from the way it was ratified within a governmental system with voting rights for some of its citizens.

The Declaration of Independence claims to derive its authority from " Laws of Nature and of Nature's God". The people who signed it were a very select subset of its citizens, which raises the question: does the document represent accurately the opinions of the majority of American colonists in 1776? It might or it might not.

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Dr Markus
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby Dr Markus » 27 Jan 2018, 17:35

bobzilla77 wrote:
The Great Defector wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote:So Markus is now stealth quoting alt right assholes on the board. Hooray for freedom.


So because I posted this It automatically means I agree with it? Also "stealth"? easy there jimbo.


I didn't say you agreed with it, I said you were quoting it. You did quote it.

Stand up for your actions or think about whether you might do better next time.



You're making it sound like I'm trying to spread propaganda in a evil way or something. Stealth? as was shown you can find out who wrote this quite easily. I posted this to spark debate, which it has. There's nothing malicious or nefarious as you're making it sound. The ONLY person trying to make it sound like that.

Your last sentence is a laughable overreaction.
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby bobzilla77 » 27 Jan 2018, 17:37

As for your motivation in posting that and asking us whether the idea has merit, I will decline to speculate. I'll ask you, what is your motivation?
Jimbo wrote:I guess I am over Graham Nash's politics. Hopelessly naive by the standards I've molded for myself these days.

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BARON CORNY DOG
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby BARON CORNY DOG » 27 Jan 2018, 17:41

We all know you’re a right wing nutter, Markus. It’s ok.
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby Dr Markus » 27 Jan 2018, 17:43

bobzilla77 wrote:As for your motivation in posting that and asking us whether the idea has merit, I will decline to speculate. I'll ask you, what is your motivation?



You answered your own question. Whether this idea has merit.
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby Dr Markus » 27 Jan 2018, 17:44

Very Stable Baron wrote:We all know you’re a right wing nutter, Markus. It’s ok.


Centre with left leanings.
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby bobzilla77 » 27 Jan 2018, 17:50

No, it's bullshit that has no merit whatsofuckingever. You're welcome.
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby Dr Markus » 27 Jan 2018, 17:52

bobzilla77 wrote:No, it's bullshit that has no merit whatsofuckingever. You're welcome.


Good man, we got there in the end, an opinion on the piece.
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby copehead » 27 Jan 2018, 17:59

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Stating up front that I basically agree with your position on both the convenient selective usage of a term like ”natural law” and the agenda of this article...I’m still somewhat philosophically interested in the concept of natural law.

The US Constitution pretty much derives it’s moral authority from the concept, “we hold these truths to be self-evident.” Isn’t that essentially a natural law argument?



Absolutely, but they fell at the very first hurdle didn't they?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


Perhaps if they had added, unless they are Black or female at the end.

They were fine words, but words is what they were, they were mainly slave owners and they either didn't believe what they wrote or didn't believe slaves were men, and women are conspicuous by their absence both in the use of the word "men" rather than people and in the signatories.

They were men of their times, but trying to state that the Declaration of Independence was stating natural law is rather let down by the reality of the signatories' actions.

The only thing that I can think of that I could make a claim for is rape in modern western countries, that is illegal even within marriage now and is seen as always wrong, even on a battlefield, although I imagine that would last all of 5 minutes in a real life or death war.

And there my argument for rape being against natural law currently moves on to shaky ground.

And historically it was seen as a legitimate act of war and very recently impossible within marriage.

They aren't so much natural laws as a wish list of things we'd like our society to aspire to.
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bobzilla77
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby bobzilla77 » 27 Jan 2018, 18:07

How could anyone object to the proliferation of dude's viewpoints?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/12/opinion/ben-shapiro.html
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 27 Jan 2018, 20:12

Copehead wrote:Absolutely, but they fell at the very first hurdle didn't they?


Without question. But it’s a separate issue to determine how well folks who make natural law claims actually do at living up to them.

Copehead wrote:They aren't so much natural laws as a wish list of things we'd like our society to aspire to.


I’m not sure if that’s not a distinction without a difference. There’s a growing body of social science that posits that human beings are hardwired to care about fairness. I’m sure there are counter-theories too, but if that is natural for us...wouldn’t it be fair to view it as natural law?
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby copehead » 27 Jan 2018, 22:13

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
Copehead wrote:Absolutely, but they fell at the very first hurdle didn't they?


Without question. But it’s a separate issue to determine how well folks who make natural law claims actually do at living up to them.

Copehead wrote:They aren't so much natural laws as a wish list of things we'd like our society to aspire to.


I’m not sure if that’s not a distinction without a difference. There’s a growing body of social science that posits that human beings are hardwired to care about fairness. I’m sure there are counter-theories too, but if that is natural for us...wouldn’t it be fair to view it as natural law?


I am sure we are generally hardwired to desire fairness, but enough of us aren't to make any claim that it is a "natural law" untenable in my view.

Get 10 different people in a room and you would get 9 different lists of what these natural laws were and one person saying that the phrase "natural law" is stupid and only used used because it sounds sciency and important

There are traits that societies generally aspire to, but there are a myriad examples of those that didn't, but they are neither natural nor laws.

I dislike the phrase because it is trying to make it sound as if it is underpinned by factual information and objectively real but it is just means whatever the person using it wants it to mean and that is usually some crappy right wing meme.
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby KeithPratt » 28 Jan 2018, 13:30

What about having children and starting a family? These are natural, observable behaviours in all societies. I would argue that behaviours stemming from the desire to protect and increase the prosperity of one's family are at the heart of all our actions. Are these natural behaviours?

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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby copehead » 28 Jan 2018, 14:29

Toby wrote:What about having children and starting a family? These are natural, observable behaviours in all societies. I would argue that behaviours stemming from the desire to protect and increase the prosperity of one's family are at the heart of all our actions. Are these natural behaviours?


I don't have any children, many people don't

But I don't think procreation or protecting yourself and your family can be termed natural laws, they are just behaviours common to animal life.

If that is all "natural laws" are they are worthless truisms surely, it would just be stating the bleeding obvious to no end.
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby KeithPratt » 29 Jan 2018, 11:04

I'm not stating that they are laws, but that they are behaviours. From behaviours stem actions, which then surely impact other people in the society that they live in. As societies have changed, yes, there are some people who make a conscious decision not to have families, but that they are still very much an exception and limited to the relatively wealthy of the west.

At what point do you start determining that these behaviours are not "natural"?

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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby Dr Markus » 29 Jan 2018, 13:23

But "natural" behaviors would change over time wouldn't they?
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Re: Your Opinion On This?

Postby copehead » 29 Jan 2018, 14:06

Toby wrote:I'm not stating that they are laws, but that they are behaviours. From behaviours stem actions, which then surely impact other people in the society that they live in. As societies have changed, yes, there are some people who make a conscious decision not to have families, but that they are still very much an exception and limited to the relatively wealthy of the west.

At what point do you start determining that these behaviours are not "natural"?


But at what point do you start determining that they are natural laws?

I don't really have a problem with describing processes like having kids as natural, I have a problem with describing things humans do as natural laws.

In the past all sorts of things that would get you ostracised or locked up for long periods were "natural laws"

They don't exist as absolutes, they are human concepts and they are constantly changing. They have been used by the political right and demagogues of all stripes to justify control.
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