Why do England underperform at international football?

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The Modernist

Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby The Modernist » 10 Oct 2013, 10:18

It is that, but it's also due to the fact the lower league clubs don't have the finance, scouting network or profile to attract foreign players in large numbers. It's also much harder to get work permits (in the case of non-EU players) for foreign players of a lower profile who don't yet represent their country internationally, and that would be the market for lower league clubs.

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 10 Oct 2013, 10:35

Well if things keep going the way they are you could be looking at the lower divisions to fill out your national team.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby ... » 11 Oct 2013, 10:38

Dr Markus wrote:Well if things keep going the way they are you could be looking at the lower divisions to fill out your national team.


It worked fairly well when big Jack Charlton and "plastic paddy", Mick McCarthy got Ireland punching well above their weight at Euro 88 and various World Cups

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 11 Oct 2013, 10:50

fueryhk(redux) wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:Well if things keep going the way they are you could be looking at the lower divisions to fill out your national team.


It worked fairly well when big Jack Charlton and "plastic paddy", Mick McCarthy got Ireland punching well above their weight at Euro 88 and various World Cups


Yeah but we're not England with a celebrated top tier league, a league that is struggling to get it's own players a game. If you think that it doesn't look bad that you have to go to your 2nd tier to get players to represent your country then more power to you. To compare that to Ireland's past and current situation is just ridiculous, on many fronts. We're a third/half(???) your size and have our own national games to compete with football.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby The Modernist » 11 Oct 2013, 10:52

fueryhk(redux) wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:Well if things keep going the way they are you could be looking at the lower divisions to fill out your national team.


It worked fairly well when big Jack Charlton and "plastic paddy", Mick McCarthy got Ireland punching well above their weight at Euro 88 and various World Cups


The likes of Keane, Houghton, Sheedy, McGragh, Townsend and Whelan were hardly lower division players.

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 11 Oct 2013, 10:54

The G Experience! wrote:
The likes of Keane, Houghton, Sheedy, McGragh, Townsend and Whelan were hardly lower division players.

Interesting spelling of McGrath. ;)
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby The Modernist » 11 Oct 2013, 10:56

Dr Markus wrote:
fueryhk(redux) wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:Well if things keep going the way they are you could be looking at the lower divisions to fill out your national team.


It worked fairly well when big Jack Charlton and "plastic paddy", Mick McCarthy got Ireland punching well above their weight at Euro 88 and various World Cups


Yeah but we're not England with a celebrated top tier league, a league that is struggling to get it's own players a game. If you think that it doesn't look bad that you have to go to your 2nd tier to get players to represent your country then more power to you. To compare that to Ireland's past and current situation is just ridiculous, on many fronts. We're a third/half(???) your size and have our own national games to compete with football.


I actually think the current doom and gloom prognosis over young English players is rather overstated.
Whilst I wouldn't disagree that the opportunities for young English players at top clubs is a worrying one and one that does need to be addressed, nevertheless England currently have their brightest crop of young players for many a year. The likes of Sturridge, Wilshere, Barkley, Townsend and Zaha could form an exciting backbone of the side for years to come.

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 11 Oct 2013, 11:02

I'd wait until they do something substantial and on a consistent basis. They're still young, give them more time to be even better than what they are doing now, hopefully.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby the masked man » 11 Oct 2013, 11:06

I do think that the argument that there are too many foreigners in the Premier League is very overstated. If you're English and good enough, you will get regular first team football in the top tier of English football. As G points out, there are a number of exciting young players holding down regular slots at top sides. Only Manchester City now seems reluctant to field English players.

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby The Modernist » 11 Oct 2013, 11:12

Dr Markus wrote:I'd wait until they do something substantial and on a consistent basis. They're still young, give them more time to be even better than what they are doing now, hopefully.


You can say that about any young player Markus. Of course they're still unproven over a period of time at the highest level... because they're still young!
But what is exciting about the players I mentioned is the type of players they are. They actually have a bit of skill and flair about them and England have been poor at producing that kind of player over the last 10 or 15 years. That's what's encouraging for me.

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby The Modernist » 11 Oct 2013, 11:18

the masked man wrote:I do think that the argument that there are too many foreigners in the Premier League is very overstated. If you're English and good enough, you will get regular first team football in the top tier of English football. As G points out, there are a number of exciting young players holding down regular slots at top sides. Only Manchester City now seems reluctant to field English players.


I doubt we'll see many young English players break through at Chelsea either while Mourinho is there.

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 11 Oct 2013, 11:21

[quote="The G Experience!"]
I'm talking about English folk over praising young players too young and too soon. It happens all the time, and has been mentioned by english people who are able to take a step back and see it. That's more what i'm talking about.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby ... » 11 Oct 2013, 11:33

Dr Markus wrote:
fueryhk(redux) wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:Well if things keep going the way they are you could be looking at the lower divisions to fill out your national team.


It worked fairly well when big Jack Charlton and "plastic paddy", Mick McCarthy got Ireland punching well above their weight at Euro 88 and various World Cups


Yeah but we're not England with a celebrated top tier league, a league that is struggling to get it's own players a game. If you think that it doesn't look bad that you have to go to your 2nd tier to get players to represent your country then more power to you. To compare that to Ireland's past and current situation is just ridiculous, on many fronts. We're a third/half(???) your size and have our own national games to compete with football.


I was being somewhat ironic there, DM, old boy...

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby KeithPratt » 11 Oct 2013, 11:35

I’d argue that England have not had a balanced side for years. Remember that for many, many years we have not had a quality left-footed midfielder who’s capable of beating someone and delivering a quality cross, a style of play so vital to our natural game. There have been many, middling players but none of any real international quality. And that’s a vital factor for any team I think, especially one that doesn’t meet on a regular basis. We tried to offset it with wingbacks and playing 3-5-2 or 5-3-2, but it’s never worked properly. I always feel that England’s formations fit the players they have, rather than the players fitting into a system. So the endless toying with Gerrard and Lampard (which I think has been less of an issue in recent years), or the faffing about with where to play Rooney or whatever.

When Germany won the Euro championship in 1996, they did so with a player called Dieter Eilts, who had never played international football. He came in to do a job as a defensive holding player as I think Lothar Matthaus was out injured. He did precisely what he was told to do and they won the tournament with an aging, humdrum team because of that system.

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Diamond Dog » 11 Oct 2013, 11:37

The G Experience! wrote:But what is exciting about the players I mentioned is the type of players they are. They actually have a bit of skill and flair about them and England have been poor at producing that kind of player over the last 10 or 15 years. That's what's encouraging for me.


Is a good answer. What excites me about both Wilshere & Barkley is that they are able to play football with their head up - sounds simple but it really is the best indicator of how good a player is, especially at that age. These two, in particular, look like a pair of players who could operate in midfield for England right now.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby The Modernist » 11 Oct 2013, 11:44

Dr Markus wrote:I'm talking about English folk over praising young players too young and too soon. It happens all the time, and has been mentioned by english people who are able to take a step back and see it. That's more what i'm talking about.


Point taken, but I was only talking about their potential which is why I used the conditional could in the sentence. I think it's fair to say these players have outstanding potential.

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 11 Oct 2013, 11:54

The G Experience! wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:I'm talking about English folk over praising young players too young and too soon. It happens all the time, and has been mentioned by english people who are able to take a step back and see it. That's more what i'm talking about.


Point taken, but I was only talking about their potential which is why I used the conditional could in the sentence. I think it's fair to say these players have outstanding potential.

They do have outstanding potential but too much pressure and a massaged ego can curtail that quickly.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby KeithPratt » 11 Oct 2013, 12:00

When Theo Walcott went to Arsenal, I thought “ well, if there’s one manager that could mould this talent into something worthwhile, then it’s Arsene Wenger”. 7 years on, Walcott is undeniably a good player, 20 goals last season to show for it. But is he a great player? No, I’m sure any Arsenal regular would say that.

I’m afraid to say that I see it in Wilshire too – I think he believes himself to be a great player but he isn’t yet. He has considerable potential and is still young, but there’s something about that I don’t think will move onto greatness – perhaps it’s the arrogance, but probably deep down it’s something in his mental makeup – that English comment of “we tackle hard” etc . Barkley might be different, but I’ll have to wait and see. I don’t see tactical nuance that I see in European players of similar quality.

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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby Dr Markus » 11 Oct 2013, 12:08

One of the big differences i seen between say the spanish young players and the english is that when a spanish player moves in to space they have a wee look around themselves before even asking for the ball. I would imagine to see if they are actually fully open or not. If not fully open they keep moving until they are or they make a run. Not many young english players do this. It seems simple, but i'd say it makes a big difference. Of course then they don't shit themselves when they see a playing coming towards when they do receive the ball. While Liverpool are trying to introduce this type of thinking in to their game especially in the defense, i have to admit sometimes i'm just begging for the defenders to hoof it up the park. It's just my go to shout, when we need to keep playing like this until we get used to it.
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Re: Why do England underperform at international football?

Postby KeithPratt » 11 Oct 2013, 12:16

Ozil's short period of time at Arsenal has already shown us why he is a great player - because he finds the space and time to do what he does. It's a mixture of anticipation, positional sense and his exceptional first touch.

And only one english player in probably 40 years has shown that level of quality - Gascoigne.


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