Folk music

Do talk back
User avatar
GoogaMooga
custodian of oldies
Posts: 28299
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 05:23
Location: Denmark

Folk music

Postby GoogaMooga » 27 Sep 2021, 08:35

I am not too keen on folk music. I think Benny Andersson became completely uninteresting once he took the folk route post-ABBA. Danish, Swedish, British, American, whatever - folk is a little bit too cheese-between-the toes for me. UNLESS of course, it's got pop or rock elements. Folk rock is fine. And folk pop is even better.

Great examples of folk artists who have the pop "nous" are for example:

Simon and Garfunkel
The Springfields
Mamas and the Papas
Trini Lopez
Peter, Paul & Mary
Donovan

"When the desert comes, people will be sad; just as Cannery Row was sad when all the pilchards were caught and canned and eaten." - John Steinbeck

User avatar
The Fish
Beer Battered
Posts: 12637
Joined: 24 Oct 2003, 20:04
Location: Hove Actually

Re: Folk music

Postby The Fish » 27 Sep 2021, 09:07

You entered the Trini Lopez in the folk cup and it got ripped to shreds. It isn't as if it's improved any in the meantime.

I'd say Mamas and Papas were more sunshine pop than folk The KIngston TRio would be a better example.
We're way past rhubarb

User avatar
Darkness_Fish
Posts: 7462
Joined: 27 Jul 2015, 09:58

Re: Folk music

Postby Darkness_Fish » 27 Sep 2021, 09:25

It's strange that you say folk without pop is cheese-between-the-toes, when normally I'd say it's the opposite, it's the bending of the genre with trite hooks which curdles my spine. I mean, you list Simon & Garfunkel, but is their version of Scarborough Fair anything but a great trad folk song? They could write great pop songs, too, I think that just means they could do both things.

And don't forget, great pop songs also sometimes started out in life as great folk songs...

(I still prefer this version)
Like fast-moving clouds casting shadows against a hillside, the melody-loop shuddered with a sense of the sublime, the awful unknowable majesty of the world.

User avatar
GoogaMooga
custodian of oldies
Posts: 28299
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 05:23
Location: Denmark

Re: Folk music

Postby GoogaMooga » 27 Sep 2021, 15:20

The Fish wrote:You entered the Trini Lopez in the folk cup and it got ripped to shreds. It isn't as if it's improved any in the meantime.

I'd say Mamas and Papas were more sunshine pop than folk The KIngston TRio would be a better example.


It was his biggest hit, and PP&M also did very well with it.
"When the desert comes, people will be sad; just as Cannery Row was sad when all the pilchards were caught and canned and eaten." - John Steinbeck

User avatar
GoogaMooga
custodian of oldies
Posts: 28299
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 05:23
Location: Denmark

Re: Folk music

Postby GoogaMooga » 27 Sep 2021, 15:23

Darkness_Fish wrote:It's strange that you say folk without pop is cheese-between-the-toes, when normally I'd say it's the opposite, it's the bending of the genre with trite hooks which curdles my spine. I mean, you list Simon & Garfunkel, but is their version of Scarborough Fair anything but a great trad folk song? They could write great pop songs, too, I think that just means they could do both things.

And don't forget, great pop songs also sometimes started out in life as great folk songs...

(I still prefer this version)


Great pop can not be trite in my estimation. It's HARD to come up with a great hook. Otherwise we'd always be humming along to the latest chart topper, which is not the case. It depends on where you are coming from, your perspective, and I know you like indy, alt, underground, that sort of thing.
"When the desert comes, people will be sad; just as Cannery Row was sad when all the pilchards were caught and canned and eaten." - John Steinbeck

User avatar
GoogaMooga
custodian of oldies
Posts: 28299
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 05:23
Location: Denmark

Re: Folk music

Postby GoogaMooga » 27 Sep 2021, 15:25

The Fish wrote:You entered the Trini Lopez in the folk cup and it got ripped to shreds. It isn't as if it's improved any in the meantime.

I'd say Mamas and Papas were more sunshine pop than folk The KIngston TRio would be a better example.


I thought of Kingston Trio, and while it is true they crossed over, I find them to be pure folk.
"When the desert comes, people will be sad; just as Cannery Row was sad when all the pilchards were caught and canned and eaten." - John Steinbeck

User avatar
der Freiherr
Diamond Geezer
Posts: 44793
Joined: 18 Jul 2003, 05:38
Location: Impregnable Citadel of Technicality

Re: Folk music

Postby der Freiherr » 27 Sep 2021, 16:09

GoogaMooga wrote:Great pop can not be trite in my estimation.


I take the opposite view. With rare exceptions, it MUST be trite.
take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

User avatar
Walk In My Shadow
Hello Laydeez
Posts: 38416
Joined: 23 Jul 2003, 20:02
Location: The Good, the Bad, both ugly
Contact:

Re: Folk music

Postby Walk In My Shadow » 27 Sep 2021, 19:25

GoogaMooga wrote:
Simon and Garfunkel
The Springfields
Mamas and the Papas
Trini Lopez
Peter, Paul & Mary
Donovan




You call these Folk?

Donovan started out as a troubadour but quickly called in the services of Jeff Beck.

Mamas and Papas were more sunshine pop (as somebody already said).

The term Folk conjures up Fairport Convention, Steeleye Span, John Martyn and the like for me.

Certainly British.
Beneluxfunkmeisterlurvegod


Image

User avatar
C
Robust
Posts: 65702
Joined: 22 Jul 2003, 19:06

Re: Folk music

Postby C » 27 Sep 2021, 19:29

Walk In My Shadow wrote:
GoogaMooga wrote:
Simon and Garfunkel
The Springfields
Mamas and the Papas
Trini Lopez
Peter, Paul & Mary
Donovan




You call these Folk?

Donovan started out as a troubadour but quickly called in the services of Jeff Beck.

Mamas and Papas were more sunshine pop (as somebody already said).

The term Folk conjures up Fairport Convention, Steeleye Span, John Martyn and the like for me.

Certainly British.


Yes Yves- that is why I was holding back.

The definition of ‘folk’ varies.

I’ll give Googs Simon &Garfunkel though.

Then there’s all the great Irish stuff like Planxty et alia

All this categorising into sub-genre can get complex



.
slightbreeze wrote:
C wrote:Will Barclay James Harvest feature well.....?

If we get as far as a top 100, I'd certainly consider it

User avatar
GoogaMooga
custodian of oldies
Posts: 28299
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 05:23
Location: Denmark

Re: Folk music

Postby GoogaMooga » 27 Sep 2021, 20:43

British folk like the Canterbury scene conjures up images of bearded druids walking around in forests. American folk I find a little more accessible, and it is certainly more than yer Pete Seegers and Woody Guthries. The names that I like most may not be pure folk, but I like my folk with a pop slant. Mamas and the Papas are just as much folk as they are sunshine pop. You will know that if you've got the complete run, which should not be too hard to collect.
"When the desert comes, people will be sad; just as Cannery Row was sad when all the pilchards were caught and canned and eaten." - John Steinbeck

User avatar
GoogaMooga
custodian of oldies
Posts: 28299
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 05:23
Location: Denmark

Re: Folk music

Postby GoogaMooga » 27 Sep 2021, 20:45

Is Harry Belafonte calypso or folk? Well he is both, sometimes calypso, sometimes folk.
"When the desert comes, people will be sad; just as Cannery Row was sad when all the pilchards were caught and canned and eaten." - John Steinbeck

User avatar
Jimbly
Posts: 21709
Joined: 21 Jul 2003, 23:17
Location: ????

Re: Folk music

Postby Jimbly » 27 Sep 2021, 21:41

No such thing as "British Folk"

All the regions are completely different.
So Long Kid, Take A Bow.

User avatar
GoogaMooga
custodian of oldies
Posts: 28299
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 05:23
Location: Denmark

Re: Folk music

Postby GoogaMooga » 27 Sep 2021, 23:51

Jimbly wrote:No such thing as "British Folk"

All the regions are completely different.


You are right. What should I say if I were to compare US folk with the many strands of folk from the UK? It is just shorthand.
"When the desert comes, people will be sad; just as Cannery Row was sad when all the pilchards were caught and canned and eaten." - John Steinbeck

User avatar
Jimbly
Posts: 21709
Joined: 21 Jul 2003, 23:17
Location: ????

Re: Folk music

Postby Jimbly » 28 Sep 2021, 08:45

GoogaMooga wrote:
Jimbly wrote:No such thing as "British Folk"

All the regions are completely different.


You are right. What should I say if I were to compare US folk with the many strands of folk from the UK? It is just shorthand.


Apples and Oranges.
So Long Kid, Take A Bow.

User avatar
GoogaMooga
custodian of oldies
Posts: 28299
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 05:23
Location: Denmark

Re: Folk music

Postby GoogaMooga » 28 Sep 2021, 09:21

Jimbly wrote:
GoogaMooga wrote:
Jimbly wrote:No such thing as "British Folk"

All the regions are completely different.


You are right. What should I say if I were to compare US folk with the many strands of folk from the UK? It is just shorthand.


Apples and Oranges.


Seems I am not alone in using an umbrella term:

https://www.folkradio.co.uk/category/al ... tish-folk/

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1m7KQ ... VvXnde3nNe

https://donnahatch.com/history-of-british-folk-music/
"When the desert comes, people will be sad; just as Cannery Row was sad when all the pilchards were caught and canned and eaten." - John Steinbeck

User avatar
C
Robust
Posts: 65702
Joined: 22 Jul 2003, 19:06

Re: Folk music

Postby C » 28 Sep 2021, 09:34



Art Garfunkle

They can't even get that right!!!!




.
slightbreeze wrote:
C wrote:Will Barclay James Harvest feature well.....?

If we get as far as a top 100, I'd certainly consider it

User avatar
Darkness_Fish
Posts: 7462
Joined: 27 Jul 2015, 09:58

Re: Folk music

Postby Darkness_Fish » 28 Sep 2021, 14:58

GoogaMooga wrote:
Darkness_Fish wrote:Great pop can not be trite in my estimation. It's HARD to come up with a great hook. Otherwise we'd always be humming along to the latest chart topper, which is not the case

But then it also doesn't make sense to say folk is cheese-between-the-toes. Great pop can't be trite by defining it as great. Likewise, great folk can't be cheese. Adding "great" as a qualifier to anything means it isn't crap.
Like fast-moving clouds casting shadows against a hillside, the melody-loop shuddered with a sense of the sublime, the awful unknowable majesty of the world.

User avatar
Darkness_Fish
Posts: 7462
Joined: 27 Jul 2015, 09:58

Re: Folk music

Postby Darkness_Fish » 28 Sep 2021, 15:10

GoogaMooga wrote:British folk like the Canterbury scene

Jamaican ska like the Laurel Canyon scene... ;)
Like fast-moving clouds casting shadows against a hillside, the melody-loop shuddered with a sense of the sublime, the awful unknowable majesty of the world.

User avatar
GoogaMooga
custodian of oldies
Posts: 28299
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 05:23
Location: Denmark

Re: Folk music

Postby GoogaMooga » 28 Sep 2021, 16:46

Darkness_Fish wrote:
GoogaMooga wrote:
Darkness_Fish wrote:Great pop can not be trite in my estimation. It's HARD to come up with a great hook. Otherwise we'd always be humming along to the latest chart topper, which is not the case

But then it also doesn't make sense to say folk is cheese-between-the-toes. Great pop can't be trite by defining it as great. Likewise, great folk can't be cheese. Adding "great" as a qualifier to anything means it isn't crap.


Cheese is usually meant in a negative way, but not always. That's why I make the distinction and add "between-the-toes", for negative emphasis. For instance, James Last is cheesy, but then his best work, like "Biscaya", few would dispute its greatness if they were to listen to it without any form of prejudice. Of course you can have great cheese. Like you can have great trash.
"When the desert comes, people will be sad; just as Cannery Row was sad when all the pilchards were caught and canned and eaten." - John Steinbeck

User avatar
GoogaMooga
custodian of oldies
Posts: 28299
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 05:23
Location: Denmark

Re: Folk music

Postby GoogaMooga » 28 Sep 2021, 16:48

Darkness_Fish wrote:
GoogaMooga wrote:British folk like the Canterbury scene

Jamaican ska like the Laurel Canyon scene... ;)


No, there was a Canterbury scene in folk, was there not?
"When the desert comes, people will be sad; just as Cannery Row was sad when all the pilchards were caught and canned and eaten." - John Steinbeck