Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

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Diamond Dog
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Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Diamond Dog » 20 Feb 2005, 15:21

Artists that, had they not been, would have changed music irrevocably - i.e. their absence would mean music is not as it is now.

Elvis Presley - Yep, we know he didn't invent rock and roll. Yep, we know he didn't write his own songs. But, without him, that kind of mass appeal, fan adulation and just pure sex in music wouldn't have been the same.

The Beatles - Took that fan adulation but allayed it with quite stupendous songwriting talents. Without them, bands/artists may well still be getting their songs from imported songwriting teams.

Bob Dylan - Without the political/sociological slant of his songwriting, we couldn't possibly have had the 'meaningful' music we have had since his arrival on the scene.

Jimi Hendrix - Took the need to experiment and excel to an all together different level. Without him, the technical brilliance we have seen couldn't have happened.

Kraftwerk - The only really new thing (post 'rock) has been synthesised, beat driven music. All hip hop owes a great deal to Kraftwerk - without their dedication to making 'non rock' music, it couldn't have happened.

Any others?
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Postby Owen » 20 Feb 2005, 15:24

James Brown

Much more that i hear these days owes something to him than to the others, except maybe kraftwerk

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Postby Butch Manly » 20 Feb 2005, 15:24

kool herc?
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Postby Nikki Gradual » 20 Feb 2005, 15:27

I would add either for their musical innovation or popularising styles of music or helming a 'scene':
Jelly Roll Morton
Woody Guthrie
Mussorgsky
Robert Johnson
Ewan MacColl/Pete Seeger
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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Cédric » 20 Feb 2005, 15:30

Diamond Dog wrote:Bob Dylan - Without the political/sociological slant of his songwriting, we couldn't possibly have had the 'meaningful' music we have had since his arrival on the scene.


I think that it's even more than that... Beyond the political/socialogical content of his songs, Dylan brought some new words into the popular music. He broke the "rules" of the pop songs by introducing some new angles and new forms (the 6-minutes-flow of words in Like A Rolling Stone, for instance). In the Sixties, even his "love" songs were revolutionnary.
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Postby Diamond Dog » 20 Feb 2005, 15:39

Yeah, I agree Ced - I was just giving the obvious reasons. It's easy to forget that six minute diatribes weren't around before His Bobness!
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Postby Owen » 20 Feb 2005, 15:46

Diamond Dog wrote:Yeah, I agree Ced - I was just giving the obvious reasons. It's easy to forget that six minute diatribes weren't around before His Bobness!


Not diatribes (and i agree about Dylan's place obviously) but there are a bunch of 6 minute RnB singles prior to Dylan supposedly breaking the rules of how long a song could be. what'd I say for one.

Dylan's might be the first one that got played on the radio intact but it wasn't the first

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Postby Owen » 20 Feb 2005, 15:48

TheBoyGiraffe wrote:kool herc?


Except nobody who wasn't there at the time has actually heard him (like Buddy bolden I suppose) and he was basically just a jamaican ex-pat doing what dozens of people (including himself) had been doing in Kingston for years

I'd go forward to someone who actually got recorded for that in the same way that Elvis is more important than people who were doing what he did first

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Postby Diamond Dog » 20 Feb 2005, 15:49

Owen wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Yeah, I agree Ced - I was just giving the obvious reasons. It's easy to forget that six minute diatribes weren't around before His Bobness!


Not diatribes (and i agree about Dylan's place obviously) but there are a bunch of 6 minute RnB singles prior to Dylan supposedly breaking the rules of how long a song could be. what'd I say for one.

Dylan's might be the first one that got played on the radio intact but it wasn't the first


Good points Owen. I think it was the breaking of structure with Dylan that was revolutionary - but there certainly were tracks before Bob's, so I'd concede you that.

I thought about James Brown - I'm not entirely sure that the way he drove music was a natural evolution of what went before (and would have happened without him) but he certainly is close to being in here.
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Postby Diamond Dog » 20 Feb 2005, 15:50

How about Bob Marley?
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Postby Owen » 20 Feb 2005, 15:54

Diamond Dog wrote:How about Bob Marley?


Didn't have a whole lot of influence on anythng else really apart from maybe a few other island signings who did better off Jamaica than on. Even during his career Jamaica had moved on.

I've seen a good case made for the lack of any post-Marley jamaican breakthroughs being down to the fact that he didn't actually sound like much else from there

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Postby Cédric » 20 Feb 2005, 15:56

Owen wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Yeah, I agree Ced - I was just giving the obvious reasons. It's easy to forget that six minute diatribes weren't around before His Bobness!


Not diatribes (and i agree about Dylan's place obviously) but there are a bunch of 6 minute RnB singles prior to Dylan supposedly breaking the rules of how long a song could be. what'd I say for one.

Dylan's might be the first one that got played on the radio intact but it wasn't the first


I was talking about the words of these songs and the fact that they were meant for the "pop" market (and, in "Like A Rolling Stone"'s case) released on single. Dylan himself had already released some longer songs on some of his folk records ("With God On Our Side" among others...).

Don't reduce that to a length question, please... :-)
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Postby Owen » 20 Feb 2005, 16:07

Cédric wrote:
Owen wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Yeah, I agree Ced - I was just giving the obvious reasons. It's easy to forget that six minute diatribes weren't around before His Bobness!


Not diatribes (and i agree about Dylan's place obviously) but there are a bunch of 6 minute RnB singles prior to Dylan supposedly breaking the rules of how long a song could be. what'd I say for one.

Dylan's might be the first one that got played on the radio intact but it wasn't the first


I was talking about the words of these songs and the fact that they were meant for the "pop" market (and, in "Like A Rolling Stone"'s case) released on single. Dylan himself had already released some longer songs on some of his folk records ("With God On Our Side" among others...).

Don't reduce that to a length question, please... :-)


No, thats why i'd never argue about his placing on a list like this, I think (and i definitely nicked this from somewhere, Dave Marsh?) that Dylan's big thing was that he changed what it was ok to write and sing about.

Punk did the same.

That impact is still with us, we can have (to chose an example from the current uk pop chart) long slow songs about the singers baby being in an intensive care unit and it's still 'pop'

Length does matter too, but only in as much it provides a canvas for people to write about what they want and it still be pop. It's the words and the fact that he did so within a pop context not just for a select audience that matters

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Postby Cédric » 20 Feb 2005, 16:14

Owen wrote:
Cédric wrote:
Owen wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Yeah, I agree Ced - I was just giving the obvious reasons. It's easy to forget that six minute diatribes weren't around before His Bobness!


Not diatribes (and i agree about Dylan's place obviously) but there are a bunch of 6 minute RnB singles prior to Dylan supposedly breaking the rules of how long a song could be. what'd I say for one.

Dylan's might be the first one that got played on the radio intact but it wasn't the first


I was talking about the words of these songs and the fact that they were meant for the "pop" market (and, in "Like A Rolling Stone"'s case) released on single. Dylan himself had already released some longer songs on some of his folk records ("With God On Our Side" among others...).

Don't reduce that to a length question, please... :-)


No, thats why i'd never argue about his placing on a list like this, I think (and i definitely nicked this from somewhere, Dave Marsh?) that Dylan's big thing was that he changed what it was ok to write and sing about.

Punk did the same.

That impact is still with us, we can have (to chose an example from the current uk pop chart) long slow songs about the singers baby being in an intensive care unit and it's still 'pop'

Length does matter too, but only in as much it provides a canvas for people to write about what they want and it still be pop. It's the words and the fact that he did so within a pop context not just for a select audience that matters


I agree with you. The joke on the length was only answering to the "there were already some long songs in r'n'b" remark, that's all...
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Postby Heilan Coo » 20 Feb 2005, 16:15

As far as punk goes, perhaps the Ramones? I can't really think of anything similar to them that had went before, and their influence is scattered everywhere over the last 30 years.
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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Bungo the Mungo » 20 Feb 2005, 16:17

Diamond Dog wrote:Elvis Presley - Yep, we know he didn't invent rock and roll. Yep, we know he didn't write his own songs. But, without him, that kind of mass appeal, fan adulation and just pure sex in music wouldn't have been the same.


i suppose the same could be said for frank sinatra.

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Postby Bungo the Mungo » 20 Feb 2005, 16:18

Heilan Coo wrote:As far as punk goes, perhaps the Ramones? I can't really think of anything similar to them that had went before, and their influence is scattered everywhere over the last 30 years.


you need a copy of the nuggets boxset!

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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Diamond Dog » 20 Feb 2005, 16:21

solarskope wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Elvis Presley - Yep, we know he didn't invent rock and roll. Yep, we know he didn't write his own songs. But, without him, that kind of mass appeal, fan adulation and just pure sex in music wouldn't have been the same.


i suppose the same could be said for frank sinatra.


Someone else I considered. If he hadn't have happened though, would music not have gone the same way? I'm not sure he deserves to be rated quite that importantly, but I do see the case for his inclusion.

As we're trawling back a bit further, I suppose Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong must be mentioned. I'll leave it to the jazz buffs to tell everyone exactly why, much more eloquently (and informedly) than I can.
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Postby Heilan Coo » 20 Feb 2005, 16:23

solarskope wrote:
Heilan Coo wrote:As far as punk goes, perhaps the Ramones? I can't really think of anything similar to them that had went before, and their influence is scattered everywhere over the last 30 years.


you need a copy of the nuggets boxset!


Which I have. :lol:

I'm not saying that the Ramones invented punk by any means as the beginnings of UK punk were already forming at the same time. I do take your point about the Nuggets-type stuff, though. I'm by no means under the impression that punk's year zero was 1975, as you can trace the roots and influences of punk back much farther than the mid-70s. But surely they're one of the bands that lit the blue touch paper on the whole punk scene in general, and as a result have influenced many bands along the way.

Punk would have still happened regardless, but the Ramones are surely among the most (if not the most) influential of that era?
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Postby atomic loonybin » 20 Feb 2005, 16:27

Not an artist, but Berry Gordy?