If you don't, I certainly won't... Just re-read what you wrote a few pages ago...TheBoyGriff wrote:Cup of char wrote:Diamond Dog, you are a poof.
Real punx.
Yeah !
Indeed (a very english silly homosexual expression).
if anyone could explain to me what the fuck cup of char is on about, it would be greatly appreciated. thanks.
CHARISMA
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cheepniz wrote:I understand far too many things, but that's another matter.
My point is not negated by your protest, Ced, and you know it. So you didn't think Iggy charismatic on one simple meeting. Fine. That has nothing to do with whether he is or not.
Now on to your claim that Art is everything and the Artist nothing (which is what you mean by my understanding)--you are in a long line of romantics who wish this to be so for reasons I don't think I will ever understand. Perhaps because it is that you are French, and heir perhaps to French deconstructionism's idea that the artist means nothing and the text everythingm (the ultimate expression of the Romantic naysayers). Derrida, I believe was the culprit behind that one. While this approach may aide the critic and/or interviewer in his or her job, this approach only goes so far in explaining the grander reality behind the Artist--the sum total of the Art. This separation I feel unduly tears the creator from the created, in such a way as to be reminiscent of quantum physics where awkward problems such as infinities are often ignored in order to make a theory work.
And so it seems that the people here who are arguing for Charisma as an important part of an artist's make-up do so because they believe that Charisma directly affects the manufactured product (AKA Art).
And thus it follows: that Charisma or an Artist's persona and/or life Does have an impact on the Art in mention.
Is this correct?
I come down on the side of Yes it is, but as you can see from my way of phrasing it, it is a Belief.
Now how the hell gays and wimmin got in here I still don't quite get......
Really fine post Duncan, however in some ways I think Ced is arguing the opposite. The French deconstructuralists (or post-structuralists -whatever!)argued for the death of the author. They (Barthes etc.) said, and excuse the over-simplification, that texts were imbued with all sorts of meaning that had nothing to do with authorial intent. This leads you to read texts contextually.
Whereas Ced is saying the opposite, to take his Iggy example he's saying an Iggy Pop record is all about the music and by extention Iggy the musician. Therefore I think he would see any musing on Iggy's drug addictions or his relationship with Bowie as little more than gossip or a distraction. He therefore elevates the author above all else (as you say seperating the art from the life).
It's a very purist notion and one I'd like to believe in in some ways, but I can't. And to bring it round to the beginning, the charisma of a particular artist is one factor in shaping what they do.
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The Holy Goof wrote:Whereas Ced is saying the opposite, to take his Iggy example he's saying an Iggy Pop record is all about the music and by extention Iggy the musician. Therefore I think he would see any musing on Iggy's drug addictions or his relationship with Bowie as little more than gossip or a distraction. He therefore elevates the author above all else (as you say seperating the art from the life).
It's a very purist notion and one I'd like to believe in in some ways, but I can't. And to bring it round to the beginning, the charisma of a particular artist is one factor in shaping what they do.
Honestly, I like learning about the artist and his life and personality. I don't go with this purist notion of the music above all else because I've always been into the personality behind it. Perhaps I obsessed on the Beatles too early. I almost always try to absorb the liner notes and essays while I'm listening. It's rare that I can listen to something completely objectively, without thoughts about the artist creeping in. The fact that someone is cool or charismatic or sexy always plays a part in how I feel about them (not always positive, sometimes a negative reaction occurs).
Listening to classical music is the closest I can get to this sort of objective listening, and even then, I'm always searching for biographical clues to how they were feeling at the time and why the comnposer wrote that way. To me, music has a strong psychological aspect, in that I feel that each artist's music is a direct result of their state of mind. I may often be wrong about my impressions, but I often ascribe biographical reasons for certain things in an artist's work.
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Charisma? How about....
(Apologies if someone got there before me with this stupid joke. And apologies if the topic is no longer about charisma, I just wanted to post a pic of a half naked woman )
Edit: The image is dead and I can't be bothered to find another one. Stupid joke about Charisma Carpenter. Ignore me.
(Apologies if someone got there before me with this stupid joke. And apologies if the topic is no longer about charisma, I just wanted to post a pic of a half naked woman )
Edit: The image is dead and I can't be bothered to find another one. Stupid joke about Charisma Carpenter. Ignore me.
Last edited by lemon on 19 Jan 2005, 22:12, edited 2 times in total.
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The Holy Goof wrote:Yes I'm the same Jim. Whenever I hear something incredible but obscure from the past, my first reaction is to think who were they? What happened to them? How did they come to do such an incredible record? So I'm immediately drawn to the context of the artists work.
And the nature of pop/rock music, I believe, is that that was always the intention. If it were not so, why would the majority of artists put information about themselves on their covers? They are selling more than just music, they are selling themselves as a whole package -- drug addictions, interview quotes and all.
There is of course a percentage of artists who play the mystery game, not putting any info on their records at all. Sometimes this is a reaction to overcommercialization (Cocteau Twins perhaps), and sometimes it's just a different form of commercialization (Led Zep IV). But pop/rock (unlike modern classical and, to some extent, jazz) has always been about selling the whole multimedia package.
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neverknows wrote:I love Pete Townshend's Union Jacket more than the Who's music.
Cloth(ing)-eared twat. Loved your post up to this point, though!
TheBoyGriff wrote:... we pity those who can't see the same.
Yeah. Like neverknows and griff, for example ...
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It seems to me that the most charismatic people are the ones who are totally at home in their own skin, ie they have worked out who they are and don't really care how they are perceived by others. This would seem to go against most performers who have to "perform" to court people's attention.
I don't disagree for one minute that Mick Jagger isn't a charismatic performer but Keef has more charisma in one of his nicotine stained fingertips than Jagger does in his whole body. I guess what I mean is that there is a difference between someone being charismatic and someone who has charisma, and the latter is a lot rarer.
I don't disagree for one minute that Mick Jagger isn't a charismatic performer but Keef has more charisma in one of his nicotine stained fingertips than Jagger does in his whole body. I guess what I mean is that there is a difference between someone being charismatic and someone who has charisma, and the latter is a lot rarer.
Aries March 21 - April 19
The corpse of 16th-century astronomer Nicolaus Corpenicus will rise from the grave this week to explain, once and for all, that the universe does not revolve around you, you self-centered prick.
The corpse of 16th-century astronomer Nicolaus Corpenicus will rise from the grave this week to explain, once and for all, that the universe does not revolve around you, you self-centered prick.
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neverknows wrote:Hotsie wrote:neverknows wrote:And I'd always thought this thread was about Genesis' record label…
*runs away to buy Beyoncé's latest charismatic release*
Hands off you poof!!
Beyonce is mine!
No! She's mine!* I noticed her huge charisma before you did!
Oh great! Now we sound like a Macca/Jacko duet!
[1st Verse (Neverknows)]
Every Night She Walks Right In My Dreams
Since I Met Her From The Start
I'm So Proud I Am The Only One
Who Is Special In Her Heart
[Chorus]
The Girl Is Mine
The Doggone Girl Is Mine
I Know She's Mine
Because The Doggone Girl Is Mine
[2nd Verse (Hots)]
I Don't Understand The Way You Think
Saying That She's Yours Not Mine
Sending Roses And Your Silly Dreams
Really Just A Waste Of Time
[Chorus]
Because She's Mine
The Doggone Girl Is Mine
Don't Waste Your Time
Because The Doggone Girl Is Mine
[Bridge (Hots)]
I Love You More Than He
(Take You Anywhere)
[Neverknows]
But I Love You Endlessly
(Loving We Will Share)
[Neverknows & Hots]
So Come And Go With Me
To One Town
[Neverknows]
But We Both Cannot Have Her
So It's One Or The Other
And One Day You'll Discover
That She's My Girl Forever And Ever
[3rd Verse (Hots)]
I Don't Build Your Hopes To Be Let Down
'Cause I Really Feel It's Time
[Neverknows]
I Know She'll Tell You I'm The One For Her
'Cause She Said I Blow Her Mind
Chorus (Neverknows)
The Girl Is Mine
The Doggone Girl Is Mine
Don't Waste Your Time
Because The Doggone Girl Is Mine
[Neverknows & Hots]
She's Mine, She's Mine
No, No, No, She's Mine
The Girl Is Mine, The Girl Is Mine
The Girl Is Mine, The Girl Is Mine
[Hots]
The Girl Is Mine, (Yep) She's Mine
The Girl Is Mine, (Yep) She's Mine
[Neverknows]
Don't Waste Your Time
Because The Doggone Girl Is Mine
The Girl Is Mine, The Girl Is Mine
[Hots]
Neverknows, We're Not Going To Fight About This, Okay
[Neverknows]
Hots, I Think I Told You, I'm A Lover Not A Fighter
[Hots]
I've Heard It All Before, Neverknows
She Told Me That I'm Her Forever Lover, You Know, Don't You Remember
[Neverknows]
Well, After Loving Me, She Said She Couldn't Love Another
[Hots]
Is That What She Said
[Neverknows]
Yes, She Said It, You Keep Dreaming
[Hots]
I Don't Believe It
[Neverknows & Hots]
The Girl Is Mine (Mine, Mine, Mine)
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moot. wrote:Diamond Dog wrote:cheepniz wrote:Without charisma, rock and roll would have never begun.
Elvis had charisma?
He oozed it. That shy southern boy thing. COME AWN!
Yeah, I know Moot - I was being facetious.
In fact, there is an arguement that (away from music) he had no charisma at all. Worth debating?
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Cocaine
Cocaine
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Diamond Dog wrote:moot. wrote:Diamond Dog wrote:cheepniz wrote:Without charisma, rock and roll would have never begun.
Elvis had charisma?
He oozed it. That shy southern boy thing. COME AWN!
Yeah, I know Moot - I was being facetious.
In fact, there is an arguement that (away from music) he had no charisma at all. Worth debating?
Perhaps...I can't say I've met him, or spoken to anyone who has. But, to what extent does a performer's off-stage persona/behavior determine how much you like the artist?
For example, from what I've heard Kevin Barnes of Of Montreal is quite an asshole...I have to admit it did make me like his band slightly less. On the other hand R. Kelly pees on underage girls, but some of his singles still rock the planet.
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Terrapin wrote:Diamond Dog wrote:moot. wrote:Diamond Dog wrote:cheepniz wrote:Without charisma, rock and roll would have never begun.
Elvis had charisma?
He oozed it. That shy southern boy thing. COME AWN!
Yeah, I know Moot - I was being facetious.
In fact, there is an arguement that (away from music) he had no charisma at all. Worth debating?
Interesting. The consensus seems to be that he was a very genuine, likeable and guileless person. Extending that to mean that in everyday life his 'charisma' was put on hold, do we get 'aloofness' as a partial definition of 'charisma'?
For musicians, probably. I prefer musicians to be more soft-spoken...a lot of people think Conor Oberst is very charasmatic, whereas I think he's embarassingly childish and quite irritating. I still like his records, but I think the overly wordy charisma isn't as good in music as it is for say an author, or an actor or something.
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