Democrat candidates so far. . .

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Sneelock
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Sneelock » 02 Aug 2019, 03:35

All I'm saying is we opened with The Public Option and we got National Romney-Care. Yeah, it's the best we've gotten so far. I'm not ungrateful.

I don't think you start haggling with what is already a compromise. It's just going to get watered down more. Ask for more than you're likely to get and THEN compromise.
Who knows what we might have gotten it if O. Had asked for more? I say ask for more or we are almost certain to get less.
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 02 Aug 2019, 04:14

Obama DID ask for more. That’s what the public option was. The ACA was the compromise.

Look - I agree that progressives are right to keep pushing the horizon of possibilities out as far as possible. But we also need those boring old moderates to actually put some measure of change in our pockets so that the progressives can push out even further.

I think it is fine that you want to play for the offense. But if every Democrat started doing a Bernie Sanders impression, the GOP would have something like 80 Senate seats and 300+ seats in the house.
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Sneelock » 02 Aug 2019, 06:21

I enjoy these little get togethers.
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 02 Aug 2019, 06:49

Can I put you down for another next week?
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Sneelock » 02 Aug 2019, 06:58

So long as it doesn’t interfere with my drum circle.
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Jimbo
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Jimbo » 02 Aug 2019, 14:21

I brag about the Japanese socialized medicine plan coming from the US where socialized medicine is the issue it is. But talking with my wife - who handled all the paperwork - I learned the J system is not what Bernie describes.

So, I just got released from the hospital after a bicycle accident and a broken pelvis. My wife said we paid about $6000 for the surgery and very nearly four months in the hospital and a massage therapy rehab hospital. Six grand is a lot but then my wife says I'll be getting back money because of a private insurance plan (part of life insurance?) we had that pays me $50 for every day I spend in a hospital. So, for the US political talk of eliminating the private insurance business, here is a case where a private plan can help. And because I was judged to be handicapped - one notch above paralyzed - next week the city is sending me to physical therapy twice a week with a driver to pick me up and I will pay about $5 a session. Plus I am renting a hospital style bed and pay only 10% of the rental fee with the city paying the rest. Oh, and carpenters will install handles around the apartment for the same discount.

It's good to be back home now where the memory of the last four months is fading fast, my walking ability is getting better, I'm back arguing with you guys and happy to live in a place with socialized medicine. FYI, it doesn't have to be Bernie's plan.
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Sneelock
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Sneelock » 02 Aug 2019, 17:10

so glad you're on the mend.
FYI, it doesn't have to be Bernie's plan.

of course not. given how popular the notion is, I say this should be the opening gambit - a single payer based system.
THEN you settle on the Public Option. I say that if we open with the P.O. then the best we can hope for is an ACA expansion of some sort at best.

Look, as I say, I supported the public option at Obama's request. I like it. I think it would be the ideal way to force the Insurance Companies to be more competitive and give better value. I support single payer now but not because I'm a holier than thou lefty bully - because there are many examples of it working and there is a groundswell of support for it.

Now, I'm also a pretty cynical bastard so I know, in my heart of hearts that those companies, faced with extinction would spare no expense to try & make every man, woman and child in America hate Bernie or Liz by name. I mean, watch an hour of Network News. Big Pharma & Insurance Company advertising bankroll the news. they are an increasing presence on social media platforms. there's no way they'd sit still for something like that. I say we see how this push back impacts the growing support for it. why just assume it would squash it - it could go either way.

if we start OUT with something they don't want then maybe we end up with something that phases in easier and keeps the Dinosaurs out of the tarpits and lighting their cigars with hundred dollar bills a little longer.

there was a good article in the NYT a month or so back
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/06/opin ... ption.html
"There Should Be a Public Option for Everything" the author argues that it's easy to win people over to the idea that the Old Skool Reagan demon government thinking is outdated. most people use & enjoy "public options" of one type or another and could be won over from the "government ruins everything" thinking.she sees a public insurance option as a vehicle for this and makes a very good case.

unlike the lady that wrote that article, I don't believe those supporting the option on that debate stage are doing it in good faith. Bernie would probably be single payer or bust - he'd risk losing a lot of support if he was seen as caving in. it's many of his supporters number one issue. But, he supported Clinton so you never know. Warren I think would be more likely to negotiate but if either gets the nom - I think they will be bargaining from a position of strength. if the support holds or grows in the face of the anguished cries of the mainstream media this gives them bargaining power.

yeah, I realize that's a lot of "ifs" but I think it's high time somebody made those Big Money guys feel a lump in their throat. it's overdue. they want to survive they need to address people's needs more - that's what those businesses are presumed to do in the first place put the fear of God in 'em. I'm ALL for it.
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 02 Aug 2019, 18:22

Okay - but you don’t even get to the negotiation table if you don’t win the election. So the question becomes - do you really think we turn around states like Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania by running full-bore on dismantling the existing healthcare system just to rebuild it or do we run the risk of pushing just enough of them away?

I don’t disagree that we end up in a better negotiating position if we go for all the marbles. But given that we aren’t likely to have enough of the Senate to pass either plan - it strikes me as foolish to risk everything for a theoretical advantage in a negotiation that will never happen.

Running on the public option is fairly easy given the moment’s politics. You are essentially telling voters, “we want to give you an option you don’t have now.” That’s pretty non-threatening, and the only real line of complaint will be that the private companies might not like being in competition with the government. But who really empathizes with private insurers?

But to defend Medicare for All, you are asking the average voter to imagine losing their existing coverage and being moved into something new and potentially scary.

I don’t see the upside of going down this road. If I thought that doing it would actually result in single payer, I’d be all for it. But we all know that it won’t.

Ultimately this whole debate is tribal. Team unreasonable wants respect, and I get that. But can we get the authoritarian who wants to take our healthcare away, and let global warming kill us all out of office first?
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Sneelock » 02 Aug 2019, 18:50

that's why we have primaries.
one side is pretty excited. the other side makes people who talk on TV excited.
let's see how it goes.

(insert logical but creepy "silent majority" comment here)
Last edited by Sneelock on 02 Aug 2019, 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Sneelock » 02 Aug 2019, 19:06

I liked this Steve Almond piece about "conflict bias"
https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2019/0 ... eve-almond
I liked it until he acted like he thinks Michelle Obama might yet declare.
on the other hand...
hmmmm.
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Jimbo » 03 Aug 2019, 13:43

TULSI 2020

Aloha Jim —

My team just told me that our campaign has blown past the 130,000 unique donor threshold to qualify for the September debates ...


Whew.
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Count Machuki
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Count Machuki » 03 Aug 2019, 15:22

Jimbo wrote:
TULSI 2020

Aloha Jim —



Your pulse went up, didn't it? Tell the truth.
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Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Jimbo » 03 Aug 2019, 16:02

Count Machuki wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
TULSI 2020

Aloha Jim —



Your pulse went up, didn't it? Tell the truth.


:lol: What can I say? She likes me. She really likes me.
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Jimbo » 07 Aug 2019, 03:11

... an essential element of this story being impossible, we cannot take seriously the other elements that are before us ... Thierry Meyssan

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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Jimbo » 08 Aug 2019, 00:17

Even half-asleep folk are aware that though Tulsi kicked ass in the debates so far there are some in her own party who'd like to see her fail. One tactic used against her is to drop names of bad people who say they like Tulsi, guilt by association, i.e. David Duke who says he likes Tulsi's ideas or something, not sure. But DAVID DUKE!!!!!

Well, now, even worse is this association between Tulsi and actual neo-Nazis.

Neo-Nazis boast ‘We got Tulsi in the debates’

Racist website takes credit for boosting Democratic presidential hopeful
By Ben Jacobs
August 5, 2019

A neo-Nazi website took credit for Rep. Tulsi Gabbard’s (D-HI) qualification for the first two Democratic primary debates. The Daily Stormer, a notorious white supremacist and antisemitic website, proclaimed in April “we did it” — after the Hawaii congresswoman reached the 65,000 donor threshold needed to participate in the first two debates...


https://jewishinsider.com/2019/08/neo-n ... e-debates/

Are voters are now supposed to think Tulsi is a Nazi? :lol:

AND the Russia silliness continues. From VOX.

Pundits, strategists, and some of Harris’s allies noted that Gabbard has a record of being unusually friendly to Russia, and suggested that Russia might be pushing propaganda to promote her bid for the Oval Office. After the debate, Harris’s national press secretary Ian Sams tweeted out an NBC News story from February about how the “Russian propaganda machine” is promoting Gabbard.
... an essential element of this story being impossible, we cannot take seriously the other elements that are before us ... Thierry Meyssan

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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Jimbo » 08 Aug 2019, 08:20

Aug 7, 2019
Mainstream Media in Panic to Stop Tulsi
Renee Parsons

Is the MSM accusing Gabbard of treason?


https://off-guardian.org/2019/08/07/mai ... top-tulsi/
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Jimbo » 08 Aug 2019, 11:25

Michael Moore is proposing that Michelle Obama get in the race.
... an essential element of this story being impossible, we cannot take seriously the other elements that are before us ... Thierry Meyssan

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Sneelock
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Sneelock » 09 Aug 2019, 06:49

Well, I’ll bet Biden’s gaffe today in Iowa has many on Team Reasonable wishing for something like that. To say something that tone deaf this early in the process is a real forehead slapper.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/joe-biden ... white-kids
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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 09 Aug 2019, 15:39

It is pretty dumb. But do gaffes matter in the era of Trump and Twitter?
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Re: Democrat candidates so far. . .

Postby Still Baron » 09 Aug 2019, 16:04

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:It is pretty dumb. But do gaffes matter in the era of Trump and Twitter?


Yes. No one else gets the Trump presumption of incompetence.

The jumped up millennial lefties on Twitter ... bless them, but I also despair. It’s not a good sample size but they’re freaking out on Biden and how they can’t even etc

Maybe, as snee says, he goes out like Jeb, but he’s still got a commanding lead in the polls.
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