May still desperately clinging on to power

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 14 Dec 2018, 11:54

It's the fundamental issue with left-leaning politics. The notion that people of a certain political hue are better than those who don't because the ideology happens to have a collectivist aim. All it does is draw people who want to feel better about themselves by allying themselves with that thought process without having to do any of the hard work. I vote Labour therefore I am a good person.

It fatally fails to understand that the human condition is much more complex than that. Furthermore, that many people who actually do good work don't advertise it. They just get on with doing it.

The idea that people who vote Labour are decent and those who don't is just a load of hilarious nonsense.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Goat Boy » 14 Dec 2018, 12:24

It is but it's a fundamental belief on the left. Collective politics is morally superior when in reality you could argue the opposite. With some people it's simply a pose. A convenient shorthand for "good person".
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby CLOWN » 14 Dec 2018, 12:38

Toby wrote:The idea that people who vote Labour are decent and those who don't is just a load of hilarious nonsense.


Of course.

BUT

if it comes down to society vs. the individual, then which way do you think Labour voters will lean? and what does that say about them?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Rorschach » 14 Dec 2018, 13:01

Toby wrote:It's the fundamental issue with left-leaning politics.


Toby light wrote: is but it's a fundamental belief on the left...


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I must agree that it's one of my FUNDAMENTAL beliefs that I'm GOOD because i'm a LEFTY!

[/sarcasm]

Or, to put it another way, maybe you should attack the stated view that you don't agree with, or even the person who has stated it. Perhaps it's a bit of a reach to impute trite generalisations to so many millions of people.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 14 Dec 2018, 13:27

Dor-Relip Hotels and Bathings wrote:if it comes down to society vs. the individual, then which way do you think Labour voters will lean? and what does that say about them?


I don't think it's as binary as that, but it's an understandable perspective I guess. Most Labour voters, like Conservative voters, will be thinking of the impact of a potential government on them personally, their family, community and then to a larger extent, the country as a whole. There really isn't much difference between the two - I imagine that both sets have die-hards who would never vote for the other, with a whole load of undecideds in the middle.However, I really don't think there is much difference in the core reasons why we vote a certain way.

Thatcher once said "there is no such thing as society, there are individual men and women and there are families. And no governments can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours."

Conservative belief pretty much all in one go there. And if I'm frank, there's a strong truth to it. Society is not some monolithic thing, it is a huge, prismatic patchwork of people, civic communities, organisations, religions, employers etc etc. All of this contributes to making it what it is, but you cannot treat it as a whole thing to be treated in such a manner.

The desire to do good, by helping "society" is a totally understandable human reflex. I think it is part of our political being - that instinct to help others less fortunate than ourselves. But I also feel that it is something that works much better in dialogues with communities that we are part of, rather than being abstracted solely through taxation and the State. The book "Poverty Safari", written by a young guy who has grown up in a rough Glasgow estate, articulates that the problem with the Left is that it wants to help, but that actually, being left to fend themselves through Austerity, his community has had to come together and work by themselves to ameliorate their situation on their own. And that in reality, the solutions they came up with were specific to what their community needed, rather than being superimposed onto them. He cited the fact that all the community wanted was a place where lots of people could come for a coffee and a chat. They were given a library, which none of them used, but obviously from a rational perspective one might suspect that a place where one could educate oneself and get on the internet would be an amazing resource. It was typical of a situation where money was essentially wasted because a load of people a distance away thought that was what they needed.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Toby » 14 Dec 2018, 13:34

Rorschach wrote:Or, to put it another way, maybe you should attack the stated view that you don't agree with, or even the person who has stated it. Perhaps it's a bit of a reach to impute trite generalisations to so many millions of people.


Well Copehead is the board's most articulate/deluded lefty and claims he speaks for all of you, so it was more of a response to his ridiculous assertion.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby $P.Muff$ » 14 Dec 2018, 14:02

Why is there such an increase in homelessness in Wales? The article Copehead posted doesn't delve into that.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Penk! » 14 Dec 2018, 14:33

$P.Muff$ wrote:Why is there such an increase in homelessness in Wales? The article Copehead posted doesn't delve into that.


The economy took a nosedive when Tom Jones moved to Vegas.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby $P.Muff$ » 14 Dec 2018, 14:35

PENK wrote:
$P.Muff$ wrote:Why is there such an increase in homelessness in Wales? The article Copehead posted doesn't delve into that.


The economy took a nosedive when Tom Jones moved to Vegas.


Right, right.

Honestly, though, wtf is going on in Wales?

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 14 Dec 2018, 16:34

Toby wrote:
Copehead wrote:Decent people vote Labour, time for you to do the same, much good it will do you where you live.


Got any statistical evidence for that?

:lol: :lol: :lol:


There is no statistical evidence.

But people who vote Conservative despite the mess we are in and the chaos and ineptitude, despite tens of thousands sleeping rough on our streets and hundreds dying out there every year, despite millions needing food banks to feed their families, despite a huge cut in comparative wages over the last few years, despite the ever increasing wealth of a small minority, despite the slow motion collapse of the NHS and state education; those people are not decent people.

They are the equivalent of Trump voters in the states. They may be angry, fearful and stupid but they can not be called decent.

If that is you then I am sorry but it is true. If all you have to come back is that labour would be worse - when all the evidence is that Labour are better custodians of the economy - borrow less and pay back more than Tories, we don't see rough sleeping and food banks like this under Labour governments and health and education are properly funded, then you have no argument beyond - I object to paying a little more tax to stop these things happening.

That is not decent.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 14 Dec 2018, 16:36

NMB wrote:
Toby wrote:
Copehead wrote:Decent people vote Labour, time for you to do the same, much good it will do you where you live.


Got any statistical evidence for that?

:lol: :lol: :lol:


As a Green voter I take umbrage with too.


As a green voter in a two party state you are just helping the Tories and assuaging your conscience unless you live in Brighton, in which case lucky you.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 14 Dec 2018, 16:38

Samoan wrote:
Copehead wrote:Decent people vote Labour, time for you to do the same, much good it will do you where you live.

:roll:

My three Labour councillors are far from what I'd call decent people and you would change your mind if you met many of my Labour voting neighbours.

Do you consider Sadiq Khan branding people "bastards" to be decent behaviour ?

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/politics/news/69391/voters-are-bastards-london-mayoral-candidate-sadiq-khan

He's always kvetching about something or other, such as how all the boys at his daughters' school look like Justin Bieber.

:P


I have explained by what I mean decency; pulling out the actions of a few dickheads to show that Labour policy is decent isn't an argument that would pass muster with a ten year old.

So I suppose that must be counted as progress.
Last edited by Copehead on 14 Dec 2018, 16:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 14 Dec 2018, 16:39

Toby wrote:It's the fundamental issue with left-leaning politics. The notion that people of a certain political hue are better than those who don't because the ideology happens to have a collectivist aim. All it does is draw people who want to feel better about themselves by allying themselves with that thought process without having to do any of the hard work. I vote Labour therefore I am a good person.

It fatally fails to understand that the human condition is much more complex than that. Furthermore, that many people who actually do good work don't advertise it. They just get on with doing it.

The idea that people who vote Labour are decent and those who don't is just a load of hilarious nonsense.


While you pontificate flatulently to make yourself feel better people are literally dying on our streets because of government policy

That isn't complex at all, addressing that is a simple moral test that you fail completely.

Passing the problem on to mythical philanthropists is just magical thinking.
Last edited by Copehead on 14 Dec 2018, 16:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 14 Dec 2018, 16:43

$P.Muff$ wrote:Why is there such an increase in homelessness in Wales? The article Copehead posted doesn't delve into that.


I don't think Wales is any different from England is it? Its assembly doesn't have the ability to raise taxes so it it s basically just a large country council getting handouts from central government and those have been slashed just as they have else where.

Why would the situation be any different in Wales. It his slightly better in Scotland but the streets of Edinburgh have hundreds of rough sleepers.

Rough sleepers can move to places they think they may get more chances to get off the streets and you do not need a visa to get to Wales, this is a British problem caused by a British government.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby $P.Muff$ » 14 Dec 2018, 17:47

Copehead wrote:I don't think Wales is any different from England is it?


I've never been and no one ever really seems to talk about the place. My knowledge of Wales is basically limited to Ford's How Green Was My Valley & the addiction documentary Swansea Love Story. What you wrote makes sense, though.

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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby CLOWN » 14 Dec 2018, 18:09

$P.Muff$ wrote:the addiction documentary Swansea Love Story.


Amazing, that. Tough watch. But it left me breathless.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby NMB » 14 Dec 2018, 18:22

Copehead wrote:
NMB wrote:
Toby wrote:
Got any statistical evidence for that?

:lol: :lol: :lol:


As a Green voter I take umbrage with too.


As a green voter in a two party state you are just helping the Tories and assuaging your conscience unless you live in Brighton, in which case lucky you.


I live in Reigate and Banstead which is so Tory my vote makes bugger all difference. But a vote to save the planet is still a decent vote.

And how do we ever get away from a two party state if we don’t vote for the other parties?
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 15 Dec 2018, 12:30

$P.Muff$ wrote:
Copehead wrote:I don't think Wales is any different from England is it?


I've never been and no one ever really seems to talk about the place. My knowledge of Wales is basically limited to Ford's How Green Was My Valley & the addiction documentary Swansea Love Story. What you wrote makes sense, though.


You should go, it is lovely and the people are renowned for their friendly openness to strangers - just friends they haven't met yet.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 15 Dec 2018, 12:32

NMB wrote:
Copehead wrote:
NMB wrote:
As a Green voter I take umbrage with too.


As a green voter in a two party state you are just helping the Tories and assuaging your conscience unless you live in Brighton, in which case lucky you.


I live in Reigate and Banstead which is so Tory my vote makes bugger all difference. But a vote to save the planet is still a decent vote.

And how do we ever get away from a two party state if we don’t vote for the other parties?


By joining the Labour Party and getting them to take PR seriously, there is a strong constituency for voting reform in the Labour Party. Another thing Blair screwed up.
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Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby yomptepi » 15 Dec 2018, 17:40

Copehead wrote:


Even you don't believe the Labour Party caused a financial meltdown triggered by sub-prime mortgage lending in the USA, do you? Even if yo are that mad don't you think getting on for 9 years is long enough fo the Tories to be responsible for the current problems?


Yes I do. brown failed to regulate the city and put n the protections many other countrie did impose. The greed and incompetence of that government were directly responsible for us being so exposed to the corrupt American banking system.

Copehead wrote: Labour also did not introduce "austerity" in 2010 they had a Keynsian plan in place that was working before the clown show that is the Old Etonian show took over.


yes they did. The idea they had any plan at all is laughable. Keynsian my arse. You are fucking nuts.

Copehead wrote: Quantitative easing was a perfectly rational first line of attack on the down turn if it had been targeted correctly, of course the Tories didn't do that they targeted it straight into the pockets of the rich and then offshore because either this was the plan or they are morons.

You have the gall to suggest that Labour are responsible for this nearly 9 years after the Tories took power? I thought you Tories were the party of personal responsibility, but you are like children.


It may be rational. The tories certainly ran with it as it appeared to be the only way to stop the entire banking system going down the pan taking every single persons money with it. I don't know how long it takes to fix a situation where a government has engineered the complete financial collapse of an economy, do you? .[/quote]

Here's another one for you to be proud of:


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/13/disgrace-rising-english-homelessness-includes-120000-children

More than 24,000 people in Britain will spend the festive period sleeping rough or in cars, trains, buses or tents, according to new estimates that throw light on the scale of so-called “hidden” homelessness.

Research by the charity Crisis suggests 12,300 people are sleeping rough on the streets – the official figure is 4,751 – while a further 12,000 will spend the night in tents, cars, sheds, bins or night buses.

The figures suggest formal estimates of rough sleeping fail to capture the true scale of the problem. The Crisis figures, calculated by specialist researchers at Heriot-Watt University, suggest the number of rough sleepers in Britain has risen by 98% since 2010, and the number in tents and buses has increased by 103%.


Funny how rough sleeping explodes under Tory regimes, almost like you don't give a fuck as long as you are not effected.

That is not the behaviour of decent people.

Decent people vote Labour, time for you to do the same, much good it will do you where you live.[/quote]


Well, when you collapse an economy, and spend over 100 billion pounds on an illegal war, so there is no money left, what happens is that the poorest always suffer, and the richest always make a killing. This has happened before, and it will happen again, probably under a Labour government. The truth is that you, like the half wit Corbyn,will not accept any liability for the damage, the willful and criminal damage, the illegal and corrupt damage Blair and Brown did to our economy over the 13 terrible, terrible years that they were allowed to plunder and ruin this country. They allowed the reckless and criminal bankers to do as they fucking well pleased, and entertained them and partied with them right up to the point where it all collapsed. And then, just like Labour always do, they threw their hands in the air and shouted " it wan't us " Well it fucking well was them, and if you are too fucking stupid to see that , then there really is nothing I can say or do that will change your mind. Ask your mate Mr Blair why he crashed the economy. Ask your hero Mr Brown why he was so utterly incompetent when it came to regulating the dangerously criminal bankers. Maybe you might find some answers there. And if you think it is decent to vote in war criminal THREE TIMES, then your definition of decent, and my definition of complicit are very close indeed.
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