Former President Donald J. Trump

[Sneelock]

My dog just fucked with my clean kitchen floor. Somebody is going to have to clean that mess up.

[Davey the Fat Boy]

First of all I don't need counter evidence. The burden of proof is on you, the accuser.

“Unless we are talking about 9/11. But since acknowledging the inconsistency of my arguments isn’t going to help me here - take that question to the other thread!”

[Jimbo]

war, regime change, energy, weapons sales, middle east policies, etc., are what's at stake. Purposefully or stupidly Trump is fucking with that agenda.

This is what you absolutely, flat-out just refuse to acknowledge. He's not. Name me one thing he's done to change any of those things.

And sorry, supporters - "the other side's just as bad/does it too" is a moronic, meaningless response.

Whoa, do you think Trump is handling foreign affairs well, as well as HRC might have done? Syria, Ukraine, Israel, SA, Africa ... all that responsibility is in the hands of an idiot. The deep state expected HRC and got Bozo the Clown. How secure do military leaders feel with him in charge. Look at how he's thinking about NATO. Some think he wants to bust it up. And he might. But that's them. But since we have Russia in our sites, do you think they worry he's doing anything to change the US policy toward Russia? They're panicking, concocting a case that gets Trump booted out and keeps the pressure on Russia.

This is interesting,

Debunking the Putin Panic with Stephen F. Cohen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUoJwXtMue4&t=18s

[bobzilla77]

.

[Snarfyguy]

First of all I said the indictment "seemed" powerful. Frankly I couldn't follow much of the legalese. I could assume it had meaning or it was jargon meant to be confusing to the average reader. I'm assuming it's bullshit.

Well, I'll tell you one thing: you can't "fool" judges with bullshit, obfuscatory legalese in federal court.

The latest indictment issued by Robert Mueller, the special counsel, charged twelve members of the G.R.U., Russia’s military-intelligence directorate, with hacking and disseminating Democratic e-mails and other files during the election. It is a highly detailed document, in many ways remarkable. In it, we learn, for instance, that Western intelligence officers had penetrated the G.R.U. so thoroughly that they could track the keystrokes of individual Russian operatives at their desks in a Moscow building. We learn that these G.R.U. staff members essentially Googled vulnerabilities in the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee before hacking into it. We learn that, from within the D.C.C.C., the G.R.U. hackers moved into the D.N.C. We learn that D.N.C. data were relayed to an American server in Illinois as they were being exfiltrated. We learn that G.R.U. officers used cryptocurrency to pay people around the world to provide things that the operation required—domain names, access to virtual private networks (V.P.N.s). The indictment may only be an accusation, but it hints at the remarkably granular forensic intelligence that has been gathered.

Either you think this stuff happened, or you think Mueller just made it all up.

Which scenario seems more likely to you?

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... -it-doesnt

(This article gets pretty deep into the weeds regarding the chain of custody of stolen emails, and I ultimately found it not very helpful, but I do think the basis for it is sound.)

[Jimbo]

Might have to break down and actually, uh, buy this book.

[Jimbo]

You might like this Davey (but probably not) because Caitlan lays into Cenk Uyger about whom you've said unkind things.

Only Idiots And Liars Say You Can Advance Both Progressivism And Russiagate

If you help the Democrats advance the “Russia! Russia!” hysteria, you are helping them do this. You are helping them maintain a political strategy which kills the need to make any concessions to the progressive base, you are helping them manufacture support for military expansionism and dangerous cold war escalations, and you are helping them divert attention away from all progressive agendas. If this narrative continues at its current frenetic level, they will be able to bully and cajole progressives to Vote Blue No Matter Who again and again and “Russia! Russia!” everyone to the right on every issue every single time. This will necessarily happen.

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/only ... 67b7382711

What an enormous waste of time this Russia freak out is. It's a normal diplomatic issue. Spying of varying degrees comes up all the time from many other nations and it's handled how? Say it with me. Diplomatically.

[Diamond Dog]

Trump initiates a trade war that results in US farmers being unable to sell their product to China.

As a way of recompensing those farmers, Trump gives a State bailout of $12 billion to those farmers.

Paid for by the US taxpayer.

With money borrowed from China.

When does this begin to feel like winning, Jimbo?

[Jimbo]

Trump initiates a trade war that results in US farmers being unable to sell their product to China.

As a way of recompensing those farmers, Trump gives a State bailout of $12 billion to those farmers.

Paid for by the US taxpayer.

With money borrowed from China.

When does this begin to feel like winning, Jimbo?

What are you asking me for? I'm a Bernie bro.

Handouts to farmers have been a thing for a long time like those wheat farmers paid NOT to grow wheat or dairy farmers paid NOT to produce milk. Chalk this up to another boondoggle. But if the tariffs do have an effect and get China to trade more fairly like stopping the counterfeiting of brand named goods, then Trump's won. Liberal pundit Thom Hartmann has been long time a proponent of tariffs. I'm pretty sure he disapproves of how Trump is doing it but like you said a little while back, at least Trump is trying to fulfill his promises.

[bobzilla77]

What IS the end game of all these tariffs? It's not the end of Chinese intellectual property theft. Plants are already laying off workers and talking about closing. I can't see how this makes his base happy. Who benefits from instituting a Soviet style economy in the USA?

[Sneelock]

What IS the end game of all these tariffs?

I thought this was an interesting take - the "shakedown racket" theory:
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2018/07 ... stero.html

It goes like this: the tariffs, by instituting an international trade war with our country, were intended to create hardship not only abroad but more importantly, in the US. This provides the Trump administration a splendid opportunity to offer "protection" to its loyal supporters. Protection could come in the form of exemption from the tariffs for specific business sectors or in the form of cash payoffs to offset the financial burden. A shakedown racket depends upon creating problems for those to be shaken down. And, as the hardships deepen, the protections Trump provides his supporters will become all that more valuable.

As for those who don't support Trump? The administration can simply respond, "No can do. There's a trade war going on. Blame Europe for your problems. Blame Obama for the lousy deals that forced us to institute tariffs in the first place. It's not our fault."

[toomanyhatz]

war, regime change, energy, weapons sales, middle east policies, etc., are what's at stake. Purposefully or stupidly Trump is fucking with that agenda.

This is what you absolutely, flat-out just refuse to acknowledge. He's not. Name me one thing he's done to change any of those things.

And sorry, supporters - "the other side's just as bad/does it too" is a moronic, meaningless response.

Whoa, do you think Trump is handling foreign affairs well, as well as blah blah blah blah blah, etc...

Ditch the comparison. Pretend Hillary doesn't exist. Pretend Trump was appointed president because he was the only choice.

Now, what have you got? Name me one thing he's done to fuck with any of those things you say he's fucking with.

(Meaning in a positive way - not increasing our reliance on coal, for example.)

One thing. Just one.

[bobzilla77]

Yeah that's kind of what I thought. It's a general principle that, during times of economic chaos, the Super Rich do very well for themselves.

[Sneelock]

One thing. Just one.

I hear the TRUMP Tower makes one hell of a taco bowl.

[Sneelock]

Yeah that's kind of what I thought. It's a general principle that, during times of economic chaos, the Super Rich do very well for themselves.

what gets me is how goddam shameless it is. I mean, it's not like we haven't been down this road before. this time the tax breaks were WAY bigger and the attendant "helping the middle class" bullshit was WAY louder. Nobody appears to be standing around waiting for those companies to kick down the jobs. in fact, they've made it pretty clear that shit ain't gonna happen.

Hey, I've got an idea! let's cram another big fat tax cut down American's throats and make all the same empty promises and call everybody else a bunch of liars all over again!!!

Q:How many times can they pull this shit before America sits up straight and smells a rat?
A: Forever? it sure the fuck is starting to look that way.

[Jimbo]

This is what you absolutely, flat-out just refuse to acknowledge. He's not. Name me one thing he's done to change any of those things.

And sorry, supporters - "the other side's just as bad/does it too" is a moronic, meaningless response.

Whoa, do you think Trump is handling foreign affairs well, as well as blah blah blah blah blah, etc...

Ditch the comparison. Pretend Hillary doesn't exist. Pretend Trump was appointed president because he was the only choice.

Now, what have you got? Name me one thing he's done to fuck with any of those things you say he's fucking with.

(Meaning in a positive way - not increasing our reliance on coal, for example.)

One thing. Just one.

Aside from his cuddling with Russia? That aside, you are right. He hasn't done that much yet to upset the "agenda." That's a good thing, right? Steady as she goes, keeping the course, SS Status Quo, pip pip!

[Count Machuki]

This "pay with cash" versus "don't pay with cash" thing is the most ridiculous rigmarole I've ever heard.

[toomanyhatz]

Ditch the comparison. Pretend Hillary doesn't exist. Pretend Trump was appointed president because he was the only choice.

Now, what have you got? Name me one thing he's done to fuck with any of those things you say he's fucking with.

(Meaning in a positive way - not increasing our reliance on coal, for example.)

One thing. Just one.

Aside from his cuddling with Russia? That aside, you are right. He hasn't done that much yet to upset the "agenda." That's a good thing, right? Steady as she goes, keeping the course, SS Status Quo, pip pip!

I have said absolutely nothing on this thread - please read it back if you don't believe me - to suggest that.

You are STILL using "but Hillary..."

Outside of that you've got nothing.

[Davey the Fat Boy]

The midterm election hacking has commenced:

https://www.google.com/amp/thehill.com/ ... port%3famp

[mentalist (slight return)]

A couple of fascinating articles on Trump's mentor in asshattery Roy Cohn

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... trump.html

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/06 ... lationship