World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 16 Jul 2018, 09:51

Diamond Dog wrote:I didn't watch the game yesterday - only found out the result today. That's how much the game matters, and anyone stating anything else simply doesn't understand professional football. It has nothing to do with football - it's all to do with FIFA wanting more money - that's it, pure and simple.



That's how much the game matters to you. It's hardly a money-making scheme, or at least much more than just that - it's been a tradition since the very start of the world cup, when FIFA was hardly the corporate institution it is today. To me, there's a huge difference between getting a medal and not getting one, and it makes a significant difference in how you perceive the end of the tournament - instead of the images of a semifinal loss, your lasting images will be the return of your team at the airport with medals around their neck. England had a chance to make a much bigger statement about their status if they'd beaten Belgium - even more than winning their QF to reach the semis in the first place - and they didn't take it, nor did they approach it in a way that you ever expected they would seriously challenge for it. Anyway, there’s obviously no point in discussing as your mind is made up – fortunately most teams and their fans don’t see it the same way you do.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 16 Jul 2018, 09:54

The Modernist wrote:
Toby wrote:Fantastic tournament. International football redeemed pretty much within the space of 4 weeks.

My only concerns are that a) no side outside of Europe has made the final for nearly 20 years and b) there seems to be little or no evidence that, Japan aside, African or Asian sides are making "progress" in terms of getting to the latter stages of the tournament. European teams are dominating it. That's a very small concern it must be said - in general the quality and drama of the games in the latter phases was far more important than having an "even" representation of sides from around the world.

One wonders whether the curse of the winners will affect this French team. On the face of it - they're still young enough for it not to matter, although if I were the president of the French FA, I'd probably move Deschamps on after the Euros.


I was quite impressed by the Senegal side and think with a bit of luck and a kinder draw they could have reached the latter stages.
What's really needed is for these countries to start developing their own coaches so they can form a clearer identity of their own ( it was encouraging that Senegal were managed by a Senegalese). But the problems of infrastructure in Africa is going to be quite a big obstacle.
Japan produced one of the games of the tournament and played much better than any of us were expecting.


And probably my favourite moment of this world cup - and one of my favourite moments of any world cup - is the South Koreans' final goal against Germany into an empty net and their subsequent celebrations which may have been wilder than France's yesterday.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 16 Jul 2018, 10:02

Nikki Gradual wrote:
The Modernist wrote:I'd say there was a lot more to France than a rather negative team. They were just so clinical in the way they chose their moments. It is to the tremendous credit of Croatia that they pushed them as far as they did, I think they were the only team that had France in real difficulty.


Agreed. For the first 15 minutes, Croatia looked by far the better side, then it was evens, but for the 10 minute period between scoring the third and Lloris' fuck up, France genuinely looked like they could hit double figures without breaking into a sweat. That was when the class showed.
And it was a penalty, no question. Hand clearly moved towards the ball.



Argentina also did ultimately give them a very good game (and of course were leading for a while). Either way, I'm also hugely impressed by how they control the games. While Croatia "dominated" the first 15 minutes, to me it looked like a deliberate (and surprising) tactic from France - foot off the gas pedal, let the Croatians control the ball, let's suss them out, and we'll work our way into the game when we want. There just seemed to be supreme confidence that they knew what they were doing at almost every stage of the game. I didn't see a huge amount of controversy in either of their first two goals.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby The Modernist » 16 Jul 2018, 10:10

I do think it is part of Deschamps tactics to soak up pressure, but I don't think they expected to be on the back foot quite as much in that first half. They were definitely a bit rattled. But France are so good defensively that they can afford to wait for their moments to come in games knowing they can take full advantage. That demands an extraordinary degree of confidence when you think about it.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby The Modernist » 16 Jul 2018, 10:15

Geezee wrote:
That's how much the game matters to you. It's hardly a money-making scheme, or at least much more than just that - it's been a tradition since the very start of the world cup, when FIFA was hardly the corporate institution it is today. To me, there's a huge difference between getting a medal and not getting one, and it makes a significant difference in how you perceive the end of the tournament - instead of the images of a semifinal loss, your lasting images will be the return of your team at the airport with medals around their neck. England had a chance to make a much bigger statement about their status if they'd beaten Belgium - even more than winning their QF to reach the semis in the first place - and they didn't take it, nor did they approach it in a way that you ever expected they would seriously challenge for it. Anyway, there’s obviously no point in discussing as your mind is made up – fortunately most teams and their fans don’t see it the same way you do.


I don't know about that. It's never been a game that's been given any significance as far as I'm aware. As a concept it's peculiar to the world cup, it doesn't happen in any other cup competitions. Once you're out, you should stay out.
Beating Belgium would have been a significant scalp though, but Belgium are better than England and it's probably better that England leave with a realistic picture of where they're at.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Toby » 16 Jul 2018, 10:16

Jonathan Liew called Pavard's equaliser against Argentina as the "sliding doors" moment of the World Cup and I'd agree with it.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Rayge » 16 Jul 2018, 10:23

The Modernist wrote:As a concept it's peculiar to the world cup, it doesn't happen in any other cup competitions.

Olympic Games and the Euros (not 2016, admittedly), for a start.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Toby » 16 Jul 2018, 10:26

Rayge wrote:
The Modernist wrote:As a concept it's peculiar to the world cup, it doesn't happen in any other cup competitions.

Olympic Games and the Euros (not 2016, admittedly), for a start.


Not since 1984 for the Euros I believe. The original incarnation only had 4 teams until 1980, so a 3rd place playoff was more "necessary" I guess.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Diamond Dog » 16 Jul 2018, 10:30

Geezee wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:I didn't watch the game yesterday - only found out the result today. That's how much the game matters, and anyone stating anything else simply doesn't understand professional football. It has nothing to do with football - it's all to do with FIFA wanting more money - that's it, pure and simple.



That's how much the game matters to you. It's hardly a money-making scheme, or at least much more than just that - it's been a tradition since the very start of the world cup, when FIFA was hardly the corporate institution it is today. To me, there's a huge difference between getting a medal and not getting one, and it makes a significant difference in how you perceive the end of the tournament - instead of the images of a semifinal loss, your lasting images will be the return of your team at the airport with medals around their neck. England had a chance to make a much bigger statement about their status if they'd beaten Belgium - even more than winning their QF to reach the semis in the first place - and they didn't take it, nor did they approach it in a way that you ever expected they would seriously challenge for it. Anyway, there’s obviously no point in discussing as your mind is made up – fortunately most teams and their fans don’t see it the same way you do.


So that must be why we have a third/fourth place playoff in the Fa Cup and every other cup tournament in the world?

Oh, hang on....
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 16 Jul 2018, 10:30

The Modernist wrote:
Geezee wrote:
That's how much the game matters to you. It's hardly a money-making scheme, or at least much more than just that - it's been a tradition since the very start of the world cup, when FIFA was hardly the corporate institution it is today. To me, there's a huge difference between getting a medal and not getting one, and it makes a significant difference in how you perceive the end of the tournament - instead of the images of a semifinal loss, your lasting images will be the return of your team at the airport with medals around their neck. England had a chance to make a much bigger statement about their status if they'd beaten Belgium - even more than winning their QF to reach the semis in the first place - and they didn't take it, nor did they approach it in a way that you ever expected they would seriously challenge for it. Anyway, there’s obviously no point in discussing as your mind is made up – fortunately most teams and their fans don’t see it the same way you do.


I don't know about that. It's never been a game that's been given any significance as far as I'm aware. As a concept it's peculiar to the world cup, it doesn't happen in any other cup competitions. Once you're out, you should stay out. Beating Belgium would have been a significant scalp though, but Belgium are better than England and it's probably better that England leave with a realistic picture of where they're at.


From an English perspective, I think that's the issue - they got to the semis, but never beat one of the big guns, which does leave question (which I think most are of course acknowledging - but still, those questions would have looked very different had they secured third spot).

Germany in 2006 and 2010 took the 3rd place game very seriously (I don't recall the 2014 one). And of course the 1994-2002 trio of smaller nations getting third were incredibly important for those teams. In general I agree it's difficult to find an ideal solution, but I certainly don't find it pointless, or significantly worse than the alternatives.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Rayge » 16 Jul 2018, 10:32

Toby wrote:
Rayge wrote:
The Modernist wrote:As a concept it's peculiar to the world cup, it doesn't happen in any other cup competitions.

Olympic Games and the Euros (not 2016, admittedly), for a start.


Not since 1984 for the Euros I believe. The original incarnation only had 4 teams until 1980, so a 3rd place playoff was more "necessary" I guess.


I stand corrected. Pretty sure the Olympics still has it though.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 16 Jul 2018, 10:33

Diamond Dog wrote:
Geezee wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:I didn't watch the game yesterday - only found out the result today. That's how much the game matters, and anyone stating anything else simply doesn't understand professional football. It has nothing to do with football - it's all to do with FIFA wanting more money - that's it, pure and simple.



That's how much the game matters to you. It's hardly a money-making scheme, or at least much more than just that - it's been a tradition since the very start of the world cup, when FIFA was hardly the corporate institution it is today. To me, there's a huge difference between getting a medal and not getting one, and it makes a significant difference in how you perceive the end of the tournament - instead of the images of a semifinal loss, your lasting images will be the return of your team at the airport with medals around their neck. England had a chance to make a much bigger statement about their status if they'd beaten Belgium - even more than winning their QF to reach the semis in the first place - and they didn't take it, nor did they approach it in a way that you ever expected they would seriously challenge for it. Anyway, there’s obviously no point in discussing as your mind is made up – fortunately most teams and their fans don’t see it the same way you do.


So that must be why we have a third/fourth place playoff in the Fa Cup and every other cup tournament in the world?

Oh, hang on....


The FA cup is not a national tournament.

Copa America has it. Olympics have it. Rugby World cup has it. Ice hockey world cup has it.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Diamond Dog » 16 Jul 2018, 10:38

For me the most enjoyable part of the whole tournament (besides Germany losing their first match, obviously) was the brilliant 20-30 minute spell Japan put together against Belgium - where they absolutely played them off the park and were so unlucky not to score more than two. That was the best football throughout - a breathtaking spell of pure passing football.

The best goal was Pavard's, for me. The technique and concentration required for that is immense, let alone havving the balls/imagination to attempt it in the first place.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Rayge » 16 Jul 2018, 10:39

Geezee wrote:The FA cup is not a national tournament.

not international?
Although admittedly it does have Welsh teams in it.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 16 Jul 2018, 10:41

Rayge wrote:
Geezee wrote:The FA cup is not a national tournament.

not internatonal?


(sorry yes that's what I meant of course :oops: - i meant a tournament of nations, not clubs)
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Diamond Dog » 16 Jul 2018, 10:41

Geezee wrote:The FA cup is not a national tournament.

Copa America has it. Olympics have it. Rugby World cup has it. Ice hockey world cup has it.


Right. So because a bronze medal is awarded (a totally arbitrary token) and it's a national tournament, that makes it worthwhile?

Okay - let's have a straw poll of how many here thought it was worth it. And then see how many of those would have been happy if players for their favourite club sides had suffered a season ending injury.

And then I'd like to know how many club managers like it. and how many players actually out there like it.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Diamond Dog » 16 Jul 2018, 10:42

It's also astonishing to me how many fucking idiots people have bought into the Olympics football tournament too. Jeez....
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 16 Jul 2018, 10:49

Diamond Dog wrote:
Geezee wrote:The FA cup is not a national tournament.

Copa America has it. Olympics have it. Rugby World cup has it. Ice hockey world cup has it.


Right. So because a bronze medal is awarded (a totally arbitrary token) and it's a national tournament, that makes it worthwhile?

Okay - let's have a straw poll of how many here thought it was worth it. And then see how many of those would have been happy if players for their favourite club sides had suffered a season ending injury.

And then I'd like to know how many club managers like it. and how many players actually out there like it.


I thought your point was that because no other tournament does it, therefore that is evidence it has no value? Are you now changing that? Seems to me more international team tournaments have it than do not. Is it still "just" a money-making scheme on the part of all these sports organisations?

Why is bronze an arbitrary token? Should we remove it from the Olympics as well?

Personally, obviously all my answers would be that there is huge value to the game - and again I'm glad to say that most countries have taken the game very seriously.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Diamond Dog » 16 Jul 2018, 10:49

We must agree to disagree.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 16 Jul 2018, 10:52

Diamond Dog wrote:It's also astonishing to me how many fucking idiots people have bought into the Olympics football tournament too. Jeez....


(personally I wasn't just talking about football - every team sport at hte Olympics have it (as far as I'm aware) - volleyball, ice hockey etc. either way - your original point that it's not used in other tournaments is entirely invalid)
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