Rees Mogg or Corbyn?

[Insouciant Western People]

The Jewish vote for Labour has dropped drastically since Corbyn has become leader.

Is there any evidence of this?

A poll conducted by the Jewish Chronicle on May 30th 2017 found that 77% of British Jewish respondents said they would Conservative. Only 13% said they would vote Labour.

54% said they would vote Labour were Corbyn not in charge.

[Insouciant Western People]

spouting islamophobic bile like Murray does.

What Islamophobic bile has Douglas Murray spouted? How do you define Islamophobia?

[Diamond Dog]

The Jewish vote for Labour has dropped drastically since Corbyn has become leader.

Is there any evidence of this?

A poll conducted by the Jewish Chronicle on May 30th 2017 found that 77% of British Jewish respondents said they would Conservative. Only 13% said they would vote Labour.

54% said they would vote Labour were Corbyn not in charge.

Sorry - independent evidence.

[Insouciant Western People]

Well, it's common knowledge that the Jewish Chronicle is after him because he is so critical of Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people - no great surprise at all. It's a classic smear campaign.

You don't think it might - just might - be that they think he harbours a certain hostility to the existence of Israel?

I mean, y'know, based on the fact that he's spent the last few decades hanging out and making common cause with people whose attitude might be more or less characterised as being fairly hostile to Jews and the State of Israel?

[Insouciant Western People]

I asked Nick earlier, how come, if he's for a two state solution, he doesn't criticise Israel's sabotaging of it. Not sure if he's answered that so I'll read the rest of the thread now.

I am critical of it. The Israeli government and the likes of the lunatic-fringe settler movement are hugely at fault. But they are not the only transgressors. I'm yet to hear a word of condemnation from you Griff about the murderously racist rhetoric of Hamas, the suicide bombings (which by the way is the reason for the so-called 'apartheid wall'), brainwashing child soldiers, the Al Qassam brigades' homicidal campaign against Jewish civilians, the widespread condoning of stabbings and car ramming murders on pro-Palestinian websites and social media, and the massively antisemitic propaganda spread on pro-Palestinian social media - the latter of which which I've pointed out to you on a couple of occasions, once on a Facebook page you'd liked, and you admitted as much.

I've met you halfway on this stuff, in terms of condemning Israeli government policy. How about you start condemning the numerous crimes of the Palestinians, eh? Or are you going to condone murderous antisemitism?

[Insouciant Western People]

Corbyn > critical of country known to be oppressing another people > bad for me

Or is it Corbyn > is friends with people like the PSC, Hamas, George Galloway, Ken Livingstone, Stephen Sizer, Raed Salah and takes money for appearing on Press TV > bad for me?

[Goat Boy]

Dougie? Nick?

What do you expect me to say to that? How awful it is? It's not like I am on Israels "side" you know and that's the point. I feel like when it comes to this issue there's an expectation that one should pick a "side" and to not do so is immoral. And naturally the left favours one over the other but that doesn't work for me personally so I reject it. That's partly why I posted that link about the kidnapping to remind us all that the "settlers" in question were teenage boys and whilst it's very easy to use language that dehumanises both sides and makes people somehow "guilty" by virtue of the group they belong to that makes me feel very uncomfortable and I don't think it's helpful. It's too binary for me.

I don't believe for a second that you are an anti-semite either btw but I do believe there is a problem with anti-semitism on the left and that for a number of reasons, some of which I outlined in another post some are blind to this. I think Corbyn doesn't see this.

[Insouciant Western People]

Sorry - independent evidence.

Like the Electronic Intifada 'journalism' you repeatedly post on social media?

You do have a nerve.

[Samoan]

I blame Ed Miliband

[Deebank]

My old comrade Tony has been kicked out of the party again I see. Nick and his ilk should take comfort from that fact - even under Corbyn an anti-zionist Jewish agitator like Mr. Greenstein is still untouchable it seems.

Fight on TG you are a legend!

[Insouciant Western People]

You think there aren't a lot of people, mostly on the left, who single out Israel as a central and fundamental evil in the world?

Are you serious, Nick? I honestly don't know anyone who "singles out Israel as a central and fundamental evil in the world."

It positively defines quite a few people I know! It's a classic left-wing viewpoint. Israel is seen as an extension of the USA in the region.

It is also a very common position in the Middle East, and Islamic areas of South Asia. And that is a fairly liberal viewpoint for those regions.

I've found it fairly common over the past dozen years of working in these regions to have conversations with people that have included them trotting out variations on "well you know, it was the Jews wot dun it" in reference to everything from the rise of Hitler, through the Kennedy assassinations to the death of Princess Diana, 9/11, and the invasions or Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Insouciant Western People]

My old comrade Tony has been kicked out of the party again I see. Nick and his ilk should take comfort from that fact - even under Corbyn an anti-zionist Jewish agitator like Mr. Greenstein is still untouchable it seems.

Fight on TG you are a legend!

I was rather cheered by Greenstein being kicked out

[Deebank]

My old comrade Tony has been kicked out of the party again I see. Nick and his ilk should take comfort from that fact - even under Corbyn an anti-zionist Jewish agitator like Mr. Greenstein is still untouchable it seems.

Fight on TG you are a legend!

I was rather cheered by Greenstein being kicked out

That figures.

One of the real fighters against fascism who has actually faced down real violent anti-semitism.

Like I say - fight on TG.

[Belle Lettre]

The difference between abstract reasoning and the reality on the ground?

[Insouciant Western People]

Dougie? Nick?

What do you expect me to say to that? How awful it is? It's not like I am on Israels "side" you know and that's the point. I feel like when it comes to this issue there's an expectation that one should pick a "side" and to not do so is immoral. And naturally the left favours one over the other but that doesn't work for me personally so I reject it.

This is it, exactly.

Griff seems to take the point of view that if you are not meticulously recording and condemning every infringement of human rights committed by the Israelis, the you're somehow morally deficient, and in need of being shamed and held to account. In this narrative every scuffle between Palestinians and Israelis is a moral outrage committed by the Zionist oppressors, every death of a Palestinian is part of a massacre (the deaths of Israelis at the hands of Palestinians are never mentioned, unless it's as part of a campaign of stabbing Israelis being bigged up by racist idiots on social media), every military attack by the IDF on Hamas forces is part of a genocide. There's no recognition that there are two sides fighting. That hostilities often stem from Hamas and the Palestinians too.

That 18 year old Israeli soldiers might well be pissed off by Palestinians lobbing fucking huge rocks and Molotov cocktails at them, and retaliate. That normal, liberal Israelis who have sympathy for the Palestinians' cause might object to being demonised for defending their country against people who blatantly want them murdered. That they might have grandparents who survived or died in the Holocaust and as a result, are just a bit fucking angry when dealing with people whose political proponents go in for lauding Hitler and punting antisemitic conspiracy theories.

Yes, we know the Palestinian side of things too. As I've pointed out, I've been at pains to be even-handed here. But there's no meeting in the middle ground, is there?

Apologies for going off on one, but this stuff infuriates me, you know?

[Insouciant Western People]

My old comrade Tony has been kicked out of the party again I see. Nick and his ilk should take comfort from that fact - even under Corbyn an anti-zionist Jewish agitator like Mr. Greenstein is still untouchable it seems.

Fight on TG you are a legend!

I was rather cheered by Greenstein being kicked out

That figures.

One of the real fighters against fascism who has actually faced down real violent anti-semitism.

Like I say - fight on TG.

Oh please, have a word with yourself. Greenstein is on record with some shocking stuff. It's no surprise Labour binned him.

[Belle Lettre]

Hamas didn't just appear from a vacuum, you know. You can't look at any of these things out of context. It's a clusterfuck whichever way you look at it.

[Deebank]

I was rather cheered by Greenstein being kicked out

That figures.

One of the real fighters against fascism who has actually faced down real violent anti-semitism.

Like I say - fight on TG.

Oh please, have a word with yourself. Greenstein is on record with some shocking stuff. It's no surprise Labour binned him.

Know him do you? Or just swallow the cobblers you’re fed?

[Deebank]

The crazy thing is, even after all these pages of debate, the answer is still Corbyn, It is never Rees Mogg, is it?

Yep - and I’ve never been what you’d call a fan.

[copehead]

The Jewish vote for Labour has dropped drastically since Corbyn has become leader.

Is there any evidence of this?

It would be difficult to dig such small numbers of voters out of the massive, nearly 50%, increase in the Labour vote since Labour voted Jeremy Corbyn as leader, back up to 44% in the latest Survation poll; treat that information as you will but Survation were the only polling company to get the last election right which shows they are the best of a bad lot when it comes to choosing their samples.

Regardless no one can deny the massive surge in Labour support under Jeremy Corbyn, the Jewish vote is an irrelevance, if they want to believe extreme right wing propaganda that a man who has spent his whole life fighting racism in all its forms is an anti-Semite more fool them, it is meaningless in the larger scheme if sad.

Before Going to Uni I was very pro-Israel, that was pretty easy in the 70s and early 80s, and even after becoming a lefty it wasn't something I gave a whole lot of thought to, until I lived on the same corridor as Palestinian botanist called Ebir when I did my Masters and she sat me down and explained to me the realities of being a West Bank Palestinian. Things have got so much worse since then as Griff's posts show, they live under an occupying force that has become home to a minority inured to murderous violence without consequences.

A sad country in thrall to a right wing kleptocracy kept in power by fear, not only sad for the Palestinians shot on the streets and bulldozed from their homes but for the millions of decent Israelis who abhor this being done in their name.

A solution seems further away with each passing year