Diamond Dog wrote:By the way Nick - from the Engage website :
"According to its founding statement,[2] the organisation
opposes Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Engage is in favour of the foundation of a Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel.
opposes the idea of an academic or cultural boycott of Israel.
aims to encourage, facilitate and publicise positive links between Israeli, Palestinian, British and global academia.
stands up against antisemitism in universities, in unions and in students unions. In Engage's opinion, opposing the sometimes brutal actions of the Israeli government and army is not antisemitic, but certain expressions of criticism of Israel constitute antisemitism."
I'm assuming you're as happy with all of those points of principle, not just the parts referring to boycotts etc?
Of course I am. I don't think I've ever expressed anything to the contrary of any of those opinions. Some of what follows may surprise you. Let me set this down for the record.
Despite what the lunatic Copehead might think I'm not a fascist, nor a contrarian. I would define myself as a Zionist in that I believe Israel should exist as a Jewish homeland, for many reasons but if nothing else, if only for the guaranteed safety of one of the most persecuted peoples ever to have existed. I hold this view in the same way that I think the Native American/First Nation peoples should have homeland enclaves of their own. And that any dispossessed, persecuted or disputed peoples, whether it's the Kurds, Roma/Sintis, Rohingyas, Balkan Muslims, Yazidis, Armenians or whoever, AND Palestinians, should have their own places to live free of persecution, as a primary principle.
As an ideal, I'd hope that people can live together amicably. In reality, I know that it is not always that simple nor easy, and that what we'd wish for cannot always happen overnight. Hence the need for states like Israel and Pakistan, for as long as they are needed.
I think the Palestinians as a people have often been treated badly by the Israelis, and by their Arab neighbours (who have often cynically manipulated their plight for their own ends and as a stick with which to bash Israel), and served badly by their leaders from time to time - as have the Israelis from time to time. As with the USA, I am a great admirer of the founding principles of Israel. That doesn't mean I agree with everything those countries do - in the same way that I'd count myself as an English patriot, albeit one who is often critical of what this country has done, in the same way that one can love a family member or a friend, and still not be blind to their faults.
For the record, I think the Palestinians should have their own state, and that ideally, Israel should exist within its 1948 borders. The question of Jerusalem being a debate for a different day altogether - let's not pick at that particularly painful religious scab for now.
I deplore and absolutely condemn the lunatic millenarian violent headcases who think that their being Jewish entitles them in the name of their god to annex land which is not theirs. I despise bullies and thugs also as a primary principle.
None of this, I think, contradicts the fact that I support Israel as a principle, if not always in practice, in the same way that I'd support my own country, and (for example) the USA. No countries are perfect, nor will they ever be. If you're looking for a utopia, the earth and humankind are the wrong places to seek it. Nonetheless, I think that some countries are better places to live than others. And in Israel's favour, it is a committedly democratic state, that has a good (though not perfect) record of tolerance and emancipation, not just in the region (to state the bleeding obvious, given the attitudes to homosexuality and womens' rights across the rest of the MENA area, not to mention all of sub-Saharan Africa and most of South Asia) but globally. Israel is a flawed democracy, and there is much to criticise. But you could say that of any country, for better or worse. And I absolutely reject the idea that it is a pariah among nations, or somehow worse than anywhere else, or that the Israelis have acted in a worse way than any nation would, put in the same position.
As Luther said, here I stand, I can do not other etc etc.
