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[Goat Boy]

But the idea that you form your own little communities - other expats who you get together with for drinks/chats - tends to upset some people. Even more annoying is that they look for English food in the south of Spain or wherever. I just think it's to be expected. Nobody gets hurt.

Chattering class types love to slag off Brits abroad for doing that, but would never dream of applying the same standard to immigrants to the UK.

That's it.

Toby talks about 'integrating', but that's quite another thing. I'd argue it's close to impossible - and also that it's not necessarily even desirable.

I've lived in several places in Europe and I've never even felt close to becoming integrated. How do you do that?

Marry a local lass!

I've had this sorta discussion with people before where they emphasise the importance of folks like us going abroad to live and trying to learn the language but they don't care whether people come to this country and learn English at all. Hang on a minute, you know?! I think integration is desirable but more so when the clash between cultures is more pronounced and other factors come into it (religion, attitudes towards woman etc).

[Goat Boy]

I call it 'Griff's dilemma'

Yes!

BURN

[KeithPratt]

I've had this sorta discussion with people before where they emphasise the importance of folks like us going abroad to live and trying to learn the language but they don't care whether people come to this country and learn English at all. Hang on a minute, you know?! I think integration is desirable but more so when the clash between cultures is more pronounced and other factors come into it (religion, attitudes towards woman etc).

Edited. Hmmm not an easy subject to discuss as JC says.

[The Modernist]

I went to a wedding in Spain a few years back where the father of the bride told me that he had lived there for 25 years and took pride in the fact that he hadn't learnt a word of the language. I loathed him immediately.

I know a large number of people who've settled outside the UK and haven't bothered to learn (much of) the local language. Whatever. I don't know why it bothers people.

Because you can't really integrate into the community and get to know, and appreciate, the way of life. It seems incredibly lazy and insular to me. I'm with Toby on this one.

[Belle Lettre]

Yes, if only the politeness thing. I'm sure people going into shops here don't automatically expect to be understood if they ask for something in another language than English.

[The Modernist]

Yeah, I know you should make the effort. I think the vast majority do pick up a few phrases, at least.

But the idea that you form your own little communities - other expats who you get together with for drinks/chats - tends to upset some people. Even more annoying is that they look for English food in the south of Spain or wherever. I just think it's to be expected. Nobody gets hurt.

I agree.
Only a knobhead would snarl at say, a Turkish cafe opening in Odsal Top wouldn't they? Or Polish cafes in Bradford? A reasonable person would say 'isn't it fabulous that people can find some sense of their homeland even though they are not there any more?'

Well to a point.. but when I look at some of the food items in the Polish aisle..inferior pressed meat products, cheap mayonnaise, I do wonder why they bother. Why not just buy the British stuff? I understand people find comfort in the familiar, but it can get to the point where it can be very insular and parochial.

[Insouciant Western People]

Yes, if only the politeness thing. I'm sure people going into shops here don't automatically expect to be understood if they ask for something in another language than English.

True, but then English is far more widely understood and spoken the world over. As opposed to, say, Romanian, or Farsi.

One of the reasons Brits tend to be more lazy with the language thing is that we can afford to be. A German person will learn English partly because they know that they can travel the world over and often be understood in it.

I totally agree with the politeness thing, by the way.

[Goat Boy]

I once went on a safari in India with a bunch of foreigners and some of them were dead snooty towards me cos I didn't know any other language. Really quite dismissive. I didn't think it needed explaining that being British our relationship with foreign languages is different cos English is so universal but there you go..

[KeithPratt]

I went to a wedding in Spain a few years back where the father of the bride told me that he had lived there for 25 years and took pride in the fact that he hadn't learnt a word of the language. I loathed him immediately.

I know a large number of people who've settled outside the UK and haven't bothered to learn (much of) the local language. Whatever. I don't know why it bothers people.

Because you can't really integrate into the community and get to know, and appreciate, the way of life. It seems incredibly lazy and insular to me. I'm with Toby on this one.

It's probably worth sifting this into city and country contexts. In a city, particularly a capital, or one that is "international", then I think it is not so important. Cities can accommodate expat communities far more easily than rural ones. The way of life in a city is such that you might not speak to your neighbours in a year or indeed ever.

But in the country it is entirely different. You need to be able to integrate because life there is very much based on transactions that aren't monetary - like if you went away and wanted your neighbour to "look after" your property. Plus village life isn't often as gloriously pastoral as it is often made out to be.

I remember working with a girl who had been in Stoupa, in the south of Greece for a few years. It was made up of retired British people who had mostly read Patrick Leigh Fermor and moved out there. All the women were really excited, the men not so when preparing to move out there. Over the course of the year, like clockwork, the women couldn't stand the village life because it was so infernally gossipy, whilst the men loved it because they could be left alone to get on with things like painting etc. No-one made any effort to learn the language.

[Insouciant Western People]

I once went on a safari in India with a bunch of foreigners and some of them were dead snooty towards me cos I didn't know any other language. Really quite dismissive. I didn't think it needed explaining that being British our relationship with foreign languages is different cos English is so universal but there you go..

The irony is that English is one of the recognised official national languages of India, and because there are so many other regional languages there (17 or 18 official ones if I remember correctly, hundreds of unofficial) it's usually the easiest way for a person from Tamil Nadu to talk to a Punjabi.

Pub quiz trivia fact - until 2015, English was THE official language of Pakistan.

[KeithPratt]

I once went on a safari in India with a bunch of foreigners and some of them were dead snooty towards me cos I didn't know any other language. Really quite dismissive. I didn't think it needed explaining that being British our relationship with foreign languages is different cos English is so universal but there you go..

Yeah I've noticed that. It's almost taken as a given in Europe that you know at least one other language fluently. But then most places start learning English from a very early age and the impact of the internet and global culture accelerates this. I'm sure that if French were esperanto, most of us would be conversant in it at least.

[Minnie the Minx]

Yeah, I know you should make the effort. I think the vast majority do pick up a few phrases, at least.

But the idea that you form your own little communities - other expats who you get together with for drinks/chats - tends to upset some people. Even more annoying is that they look for English food in the south of Spain or wherever. I just think it's to be expected. Nobody gets hurt.

I agree.
Only a knobhead would snarl at say, a Turkish cafe opening in Odsal Top wouldn't they? Or Polish cafes in Bradford? A reasonable person would say 'isn't it fabulous that people can find some sense of their homeland even though they are not there any more?'

Well to a point.. but when I look at some of the food items in the Polish aisle..inferior pressed meat products, cheap mayonnaise, I do wonder why they bother. Why not just buy the British stuff? I understand people find comfort in the familiar, but it can get to the point where it can be very insular and parochial.

How far an immigrant should immerse themselves into local culture depends on the perceived and subjective deliciousness of their homeland foods?
I'll be interested to see how far you get with this

[Minnie the Minx]

You may be tongue in cheek of course.
Which in itself sounds like an item in a Polish deli.

[sloopjohnc]

I call it 'Griff's dilemma'

Yes!

By Facebook accounts, he's back in Spain now.

Again.

[Insouciant Western People]

By Facebook accounts, he's back in Spain now.

Again.

Speaking English at the locals IN A VERY LOUD VOICE, no doubt.

[Belle Lettre]

You know perfectly well he speaks Spanish!

[Goat Boy]

He’ll be enjoying some local culture tonight, probably some bull fighting

[sloopjohnc]

.

[Jimbo]

You may be tongue in cheek of course.
Which in itself sounds like an item in a Polish deli.

[The Modernist]

How far an immigrant should immerse themselves into local culture depends on the perceived and subjective deliciousness of their homeland foods?
I'll be interested to see how far you get with this

Why? I don't think what I've said is at all contentious really. And my point was a lot of Polish food products aren't particularly good, we're not talking one of the world's great cuisines here.
When I was in Turkey, there were the occasional British food products that I'd miss...if you were making a cheese sandwich say, you'd think I'd love some Branston's pickle on this ( and you'd probably be wishing the cheese were Cheddar). However on the whole I was happy to buy their products and, more importantly, discover great stuff you couldn't get in Britain.