60s/70s Soul Artists We Don't Like

[naughty boy]

He’s going to batter the fuck out of me (with his gleaming dome, I guess)

[clive gash]

Ah BCB, where a Kiss fan lectures others on Soul

[Rayge]

:lol:

He’s going to batter the fuck out of me (with his gleaming dome, I guess)

What would you know about soul music, John? I'm not really sure you've ever listened to any.

By definition, neither Earth Wind and Fire nor any of the P-Funk agglomerations were Soul. One was dance-funk-R&B-acid band that came out of a Chicago/black pop background, the other an acid funk-R&B dance bance that came out of a doo-wop group. The term 'soul music' was coined to describe a new style of vocal performance by singers brought up in gospel or pentecostal churches, incorporating some of the wilder aspects of black R&B/rock and roll along with various tropes borrowed from church and gospel singing, such as melisma, dramatic testifying, open throated screams, call and response between a lead and a choir/group, and songs of damnation and despair jostling with joyous flights of the spirit, and so on. It wasn't a genre. Soul singers could sing R&B, country (Ray Charles), pop (Sam Cooke), new Orleans blues, Burt Bacharach orchestral pop (let no-one tell you Dionne Warwick and her sister Dee Dee were anything but soul singers), Spector pop, whatever. Somewhere in the 1960s, the term got shifted from the singers to their material, and 'soul' gradually came to mean pretty much the same as Race music did in the 1940s and 1950s and R&B in the 50s and indeed once again now, that is as a catch-all term for black popular music not obviously jazz or country blues.

Right, finally got that off my chest, off for a nice lie-down.

[naughty boy]

You're an odd soul, Hodgson.

[Rayge]

What would you know about soul music, John? I'm not really sure you've ever listened to any.

By definition, neither Earth Wind and Fire nor any of the P-Funk agglomerations were Soul. One was dance-funk-R&B-acid band that came out of a Chicago/black pop background, the other an acid funk-R&B dance bance that came out of a doo-wop group. The term 'soul music' was coined to describe a new style of vocal performance by singers brought up in gospel or pentecostal churches, incorporating some of the wilder aspects of black R&B/rock and roll along with various tropes borrowed from church and gospel singing, such as melisma, dramatic testifying, open throated screams, call and response between a lead and a choir/group, and songs of damnation and despair jostling with joyous flights of the spirit, and so on. It wasn't a genre. Soul singers could sing R&B, country (Ray Charles), pop (Sam Cooke), new Orleans blues, Burt Bacharach orchestral pop (let no-one tell you Dionne Warwick and her sister Dee Dee were anything but soul singers), Spector pop, whatever. Somewhere in the 1960s, the term got shifted from the singers to their material, and 'soul' gradually came to mean pretty much the same as Race music did in the 1940s and 1950s and R&B in the 50s and indeed once again now, that is as a catch-all term for black popular music not obviously jazz or country blues.

Right, finally got that off my chest, off for a nice lie-down.

I never said anything different. I just said that John has never listened to soul.
(Or funk, or rhythm and blues)

Oh, it was just that I'd read the whole of a thread about soul artists and it turned into a stramash over the relative merits of two funk bands. I mean, I know this is BCB, boldly going off at tangents, but this is my hobby-horse and I'm going to ride it till it drops.

[Matt Wilson]

Probably the people who think EW&F are too slick are the same folks who think Motown was too commercial. They want their African American music to be gritty/earthy with no attempt to court popular appeal. All fine and well, but most of the greats in soul/R&B had plenty of success with the masses, with multiple charting singles.

[toomanyhatz]

There is some late-70s funk that sometimes hits a sour note for me when it gets a bit too muso. Some Commodores and even Kool and the Gang suffers for it a bit, though of course those two have also provided some truly magic moments.

On the whole, though, it's undeniable- there was something in the air between about '65 & '78 or so. To deny it is to look for things to dislike. And the "pro" arguments re: folks like Al Green and Aretha Franklin are simply more convincing than the opposite. The batting percentage of all but a scant few- and I honestly can't think of who they might be right now- is pretty remarkable.

I'm enjoying how much folks are sticking to their guns in their opinions that they expressed years ago. In light of that I'd like to do the same.

There are 60s/70s soul (and for that matter funk, slick R&B, post-doo wop, what-have-you) songs that I like less than others. But as I say here, I have to do a pretty deep search for the ones I don't like rather than the other way around. An incredible era. I could look at a billboard R&B chart any time between '68 and '74 or so and tick off several great songs. And maybe one or two "lesser" (as in not in any way bad) ones.

[Davey the Fat Boy]

:lol:

He’s going to batter the fuck out of me (with his gleaming dome, I guess)

What would you know about soul music, John? I'm not really sure you've ever listened to any.

By definition, neither Earth Wind and Fire nor any of the P-Funk agglomerations were Soul. One was dance-funk-R&B-acid band that came out of a Chicago/black pop background, the other an acid funk-R&B dance bance that came out of a doo-wop group. The term 'soul music' was coined to describe a new style of vocal performance by singers brought up in gospel or pentecostal churches, incorporating some of the wilder aspects of black R&B/rock and roll along with various tropes borrowed from church and gospel singing, such as melisma, dramatic testifying, open throated screams, call and response between a lead and a choir/group, and songs of damnation and despair jostling with joyous flights of the spirit, and so on. It wasn't a genre. Soul singers could sing R&B, country (Ray Charles), pop (Sam Cooke), new Orleans blues, Burt Bacharach orchestral pop (let no-one tell you Dionne Warwick and her sister Dee Dee were anything but soul singers), Spector pop, whatever. Somewhere in the 1960s, the term got shifted from the singers to their material, and 'soul' gradually came to mean pretty much the same as Race music did in the 1940s and 1950s and R&B in the 50s and indeed once again now, that is as a catch-all term for black popular music not obviously jazz or country blues.

Right, finally got that off my chest, off for a nice lie-down.

I don’t disagree on purely semantic terms. That’s why I kept typing “Soul/Funk/R&B” (who’s is STILL reductive - but at least closer to bring on point).

But yeah...at some level we simply mean “black” - which makes me squeamish to admit. There’s a subtle racism to this whole conversation - which isn’t to say that anyone is being actively hateful in any way. But somewhere in all of this is a dare that asks, “are you willing to criticize black musicians???” - and perhaps a suggestion that our outward veneration of these records carries kind of a “magic negro” undertone.

Anyhow...sorry for the digression. All of that is complex shit. I don’t think I am the right guy to try and untangle it. But it’s part of this.

Getting back to the semantics of the word “soul” though. I DO agree with you to a point. But it’s also like questioning whether this act or that belong under the umbrella of “rock and roll.” To a certain extent, “soul” has become a catch-all term. I don’t think you can put that genie back in the bottle.

[Davey the Fat Boy]

There is some late-70s funk that sometimes hits a sour note for me when it gets a bit too muso. Some Commodores and even Kool and the Gang suffers for it a bit, though of course those two have also provided some truly magic moments.

On the whole, though, it's undeniable- there was something in the air between about '65 & '78 or so. To deny it is to look for things to dislike. And the "pro" arguments re: folks like Al Green and Aretha Franklin are simply more convincing than the opposite. The batting percentage of all but a scant few- and I honestly can't think of who they might be right now- is pretty remarkable.

I'm enjoying how much folks are sticking to their guns in their opinions that they expressed years ago. In light of that I'd like to do the same.

There are 60s/70s soul (and for that matter funk, slick R&B, post-doo wop, what-have-you) that I like less than others. But as I say here, I have to do a pretty deep search for the ones I don't like rather than the other way around. An incredible era. I could look at a billboard R&B chart any time between '68 and '74 or so and tick off several great songs. And maybe one or two "lesser" (as in not in any way bad) ones.

Someone on the thread answered this by saying that at worst you can find veins of good music that feels professional but forgettable.

I think that’s largely right. It’s an immense well, and most of it is at least pretty good. I can dig a long time without ever encountering an outright stinker.