May still desperately clinging on to power

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 63509
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Diamond Dog » 30 Jun 2017, 13:41

Samoan wrote::?:

Labour is the opposition.



No flies on you today, is there?
Romani ite domum

User avatar
fire and fueryIre
Posts: 8749
Joined: 04 May 2011, 02:57
Location: Accredited BCB Pain in the Arse

Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby fire and fueryIre » 30 Jun 2017, 13:48

Goat Boy wrote:We are heading towards hard brexit though, no?


Probably not. If any of us are still alive by the end of the many, many years it will take to fully resolve the myriad issues raised by what is probably the most stupid decision in UK history, I suspect that there will be some awful compromise that will satisfy no one.

Just changed the thread title btw
Image

User avatar
Geezee
Posts: 11803
Joined: 24 Jul 2003, 10:14
Location: Where joy divides into vision

Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Geezee » 30 Jun 2017, 14:26

Samoan wrote::?:

Labour is the opposition.



Not on Brexit.
Smilies are ON
Flash is OFF
Url is ON

User avatar
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes
Posts: 17247
Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 14:10
Location: The Nether World

Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 30 Jun 2017, 14:47

Diamond Dog wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:We are heading towards hard brexit though, no?


Well... I don't think so under Labour (even under Corbyn). He at least understands that we aren't exactly in the driving seat, something May and her party are seemingly incapable of processing.


Eminently sensible, Pete.

As a Dutchman, for me it's a bit harder to follow it all.

But I do believe that May & Co. are deluded about their powers regarding the negotiations.

Although I find the Brexit a terrible idea per se, I can somehow see why Corbyn avoids inner strife.
The invisible and the non-existing very much look alike.

User avatar
WG Kaspar
Posts: 8351
Joined: 28 Jan 2007, 09:07

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby WG Kaspar » 30 Jun 2017, 16:57

There is no such thing as a hard or soft Brexit.
I run out of talent

User avatar
The Prof
Composing a revolutionary symphony
Posts: 44853
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 18:32
Location: A Metropolis of Discontent

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby The Prof » 30 Jun 2017, 17:01

Yes there is.

Hard Brexit means shooting yourself in the foot. Soft Brexit means just hitting it very hard with a hammer.

User avatar
John aka Josh
Posts: 5518
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:26
Location: By the banks of the mighty Bourne

Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby John aka Josh » 30 Jun 2017, 22:02

Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:
But I do believe that May & Co. are deluded about their powers regarding the negotiations.




I'm not convinced they're really deluded. I think they're trying to delude us.
Image

User avatar
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes
Posts: 17247
Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 14:10
Location: The Nether World

Re: May calls a snap election on June 8

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 01 Jul 2017, 11:29

John aka Josh wrote:
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:
But I do believe that May & Co. are deluded about their powers regarding the negotiations.




I'm not convinced they're really deluded. I think they're trying to delude us.


:)

Smart.
The invisible and the non-existing very much look alike.

User avatar
The Modernist
Posts: 8702
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby The Modernist » 01 Jul 2017, 13:37

More evidence that Corbyn has really succeeded in shifting the political landscape leftwards.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/01/damian-green-tories-must-modernise-to-win-over-young-voters

I wasn't sure if it was possible, but he's done it. It's a genuine achievement.

User avatar
Belle Lettre
Éminence grise
Posts: 14886
Joined: 09 Oct 2008, 07:16
Location: Antiterra

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Belle Lettre » 01 Jul 2017, 14:50

It really is.
Nikki Gradual wrote:
Get a fucking grip you narcissistic cretins.

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 63509
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 02 Jul 2017, 10:33

When Michael Fucking Gove is being promoted as the 'voice of reason' you know you're fucked.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40471474

Pay review bodies' recommendations for public sector jobs should be respected by ministers, Michael Gove has said.

The environment secretary said that while ministers needed to reduce the deficit, they should also respect the "integrity" of the pay review process....
Romani ite domum

User avatar
Copehead
BCB Cup Stalinist
Posts: 22530
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 18:51
Location: at sea

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Copehead » 03 Jul 2017, 17:23

The Modernist wrote:More evidence that Corbyn has really succeeded in shifting the political landscape leftwards.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/01/damian-green-tories-must-modernise-to-win-over-young-voters

I wasn't sure if it was possible, but he's done it. It's a genuine achievement.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

There were signs that it was well to the left of where it was thought, with even Tories heavily in favour of re-nationalisations in some industries. It was just that no one was articulating that stand point.

Now the ground has taken a seismic shift leftwards under the Tories and they are panicking.

So 5 days after cheering the reimposition of a 1% pay cap, real terms pay cut, on the heroes of Grenfell Tower, and seeing how that went down like a breadless shit sandwich with the public, they are falling over themselves to endorse Labour's manifesto.

So you can believe this is a genuine change of heart and continue to vote Tory or cut out the middle man and vote for a party who really do believe in this.

Latest opinion poll, if you believe that shit, Lab 46 Con 39 - prediction - Lab majority
Wounds are all I'm made of; Did I hear you say that this is victory?


Image

Bear baiting & dog fights a speciality.

User avatar
Deebank
Resonator
Posts: 22398
Joined: 10 Oct 2003, 13:47
Location: In a beautiful place out in the country

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Deebank » 10 Jul 2017, 09:36

Her latest desperate gambit...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/09/may-to-invite-labour-to-help-create-policies-amid-tory-plot-to-oust-her

In some ways though it's quite a clever move - not in any way good for the country really, just a way of undermining the opposition because there's obviously no good response for Labour. Join the tories and shoulder part of the blame for any Brexit shit storm or stay away and also be blamed for any shit storm. I think the latter is probably the best plan.
Paid anghofio fod dy galon yn y chwyldro

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 63509
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 10 Jul 2017, 10:10

Deebank wrote:Her latest desperate gambit...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/09/may-to-invite-labour-to-help-create-policies-amid-tory-plot-to-oust-her

In some ways though it's quite a clever move - not in any way good for the country really, just a way of undermining the opposition because there's obviously no good response for Labour. Join the tories and shoulder part of the blame for any Brexit shit storm or stay away and also be blamed for any shit storm. I think the latter is probably the best plan.



There's no "think" about it. Corbyn should refuse outright.

The Tories called the referendum. The Tories have said they will implement it.

Let them do so.
Romani ite domum

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 29736
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Goat Boy » 10 Jul 2017, 10:27

Absolutely. The Tories know they are fucked on Brexit so they are trying to get Labour involved.
Copehead wrote:You are making a fool of yourself.


Muskrat wrote:I'm undemonstrative during shows; no matter how much I enjoy them. People who get up and move around ("dance," if they will) strike me as show-offs

User avatar
Nick
Posts: 24220
Joined: 23 Jul 2003, 13:31
Location: Up late at night again

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Nick » 10 Jul 2017, 11:29

The problem here for Labour is surely that if they're seen to be disavowing - or even not supporting - Brexit, they're risking further alienation of the pro-Brexit working class vote, which they currently don't have and which they'll need to get back in order to win a general election.
Jeff K wrote:Nick's still the man! No one has been as consistent as he has been over such a long period of time.

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 63509
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 10 Jul 2017, 11:42

Nick wrote:The problem here for Labour is surely that if they're seen to be disavowing - or even not supporting - Brexit, they're risking further alienation of the pro-Brexit working class vote, which they currently don't have and which they'll need to get back in order to win a general election.


Utter bollocks. Truly.

Brexit is entirely a Tory problem. They created it. They have said they will implement it.

If they can't - and this is the crux of the problem that they actually can not- then they have only one choice left. Go to the country again and let the electorate vote - either via a General Election or another referendum. Both of which they know they will lose, because the electorate will see them for the self serving, disfunctional arseholes they truly are.

So Labour gain absolutely fuck all from 'helping' the Tories here and have everything to gain potentially from 'not helping' . That's it.
Romani ite domum

User avatar
Nick
Posts: 24220
Joined: 23 Jul 2003, 13:31
Location: Up late at night again

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Nick » 10 Jul 2017, 11:56

Diamond Dog wrote:
Nick wrote:The problem here for Labour is surely that if they're seen to be disavowing - or even not supporting - Brexit, they're risking further alienation of the pro-Brexit working class vote, which they currently don't have and which they'll need to get back in order to win a general election.


Utter bollocks. Truly.


Not bollocks at all.


Diamond Dog wrote:Brexit is entirely a Tory problem. They created it. They have said they will implement it.


But Corbyn and McDonnell WANT Brexit. They've wanted it for years, and been very clear about that. The dilemma for them is whether they can contain their enthusiasm for it because of their distaste for working with the Conservatives. It is a clever move by May because it puts Labour in a very awkward position.


Diamond Dog wrote:If they can't - and this is the crux of the problem that they actually can not- then they have only one choice left. Go to the country again and let the electorate vote - either via a General Election or another referendum. Both of which they know they will lose, because the electorate will see them for the self serving, dysfunctional arseholes they truly are.


That remains to be seen - and you're assuming a lot there.


Diamond Dog wrote:So Labour gain absolutely fuck all from 'helping' the Tories here and have everything to gain potentially from 'not helping' . That's it.


As I said, if Labour are seen - or can be portrayed - as being unhelpful, uncooperative, obstructive, whatever, in implementing Brexit, that's a propaganda coup for the Tories. They will doubtless lay blame for Brexit problems at Labour's door, whether justified or not.

The quandary that Labour are in is that their support is largely middle class and pro-Remain, but they need to win over working class pro-Brexit voters.
Jeff K wrote:Nick's still the man! No one has been as consistent as he has been over such a long period of time.

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 63509
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Diamond Dog » 10 Jul 2017, 12:19

And you don't think the Conservatives having to go back to the country because they can't implement Brexit, or putting together a catastrophe of a Brexit, will not adversely effect them?

Really, think about it.

You can claim whatever youwant about the Labour leadership view on Brexit - we all know that McDonnell and Corbyn want it. So what? They didn't ask for the referendum or the result, and it sure as shit isn't their job to implement it. Ot even be seen to be aiding the implementation. That's strictly for the Tories to do - no matter how much May (and yourself) try and pull Corbyn into it, it's simply not his problem.

And the people who will decide whether that is the correct way to behave will be the electorate. Do you think they're more likely to blame Labour for the upcoming fiasco or the clown posse that proposed it, agreed with it and said they will implement it - no matter what the cost (no deal is better than a bad deal)?

Honestly now.

That's why your presumption about Labour's dilemma is bollocks.
Romani ite domum

User avatar
Bride Of Sea Of Tunes
Posts: 17247
Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 14:10
Location: The Nether World

Re: May still desperately clinging on to power

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 10 Jul 2017, 12:28

Diamond Dog wrote:And you don't think the Conservatives having to go back to the country because they can't implement Brexit, or putting together a catastrophe of a Brexit, will not adversely effect them?

Really, think about it.

You can claim whatever youwant about the Labour leadership view on Brexit - we all know that McDonnell and Corbyn want it. So what? They didn't ask for the referendum or the result, and it sure as shit isn't their job to implement it. Ot even be seen to be aiding the implementation. That's strictly for the Tories to do - no matter how much May (and yourself) try and pull Corbyn into it, it's simply not his problem.

And the people who will decide whether that is the correct way to behave will be the electorate. Do you think they're more likely to blame Labour for the upcoming fiasco or the clown posse that proposed it, agreed with it and said they will implement it - no matter what the cost (no deal is better than a bad deal)?

Honestly now.

That's why your presumption about Labour's dilemma is bollocks.


Completely agree, Pete -

the plot thickens; perhaps unrelated, but informative nonetheless:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... parliament

The Tories may reap what they have sown.
The invisible and the non-existing very much look alike.