FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Butch Manly » 06 Jun 2015, 22:26

K wrote:However, many of my favourite musicians are black. They certainly make for good entertainers.


It's their sense of rhythm. And their care-free attitude to life.
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Butch Manly » 06 Jun 2015, 22:32

K wrote:Homophobic and racist. You are a piece of work.


It has to be noted, you are not covering yourself in glory on this thread, Adam.

It's not too late to save some face by conceding you're initial thoughts were ill-thought-out, though. We've all been there.
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby 'skope » 06 Jun 2015, 22:36

Mabel Griff's Toyshop wrote:
K wrote:Homophobic and racist. You are a piece of work.


It has to be noted, you are not covering yourself in glory on this thread, Adam.

It's not too late to save some face by conceding you're initial thoughts were ill-thought-out, though. We've all been there.


:lol:

fuck off andrew, you fat cunt.

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby The Modernist » 07 Jun 2015, 10:02

Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 10:30

The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.



It does if he is implying that black players don't become manager's because they either don't have the ability or because they are too lazy to apply for positions. Which is exactly what he is implying.

He has had three pages to explain why he believes there is a logical reason, other than racism and prejudice, to explain the huge imbalance between white and non white ex players moving on to managing English clubs.

He has singularly failed to do so - indeed, he has stated that he doesn't have a clue. However, he knows enough, apparently, to know that it categorically isn't because of racism. But refuses to provide any evidence to back even that claim up.

I have provided the very real example of the Rooney Rule in the NFL. Which he chose to completely ignore although it absolutely runs parallel to this particular debate.

Maybe you can do better than him, G, and tell us why you think non white manager's are so seriously disadvantaged/overlooked in the English game?
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 10:40

I was reminded of this article of 2009... Perhaps the reason is, as stated, the lack of black people in board rooms in general...
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... XQQ0nDXeK0
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Butch Manly » 07 Jun 2015, 10:46

The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


I don't think he's racist, I just think he's clueless. Or stubborn.
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby 'skope » 07 Jun 2015, 10:46

The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


thanks, G. this thread has gone beyond debate and has got unpleasantly personal.

the only fact presented on this thread is that there is a disproportionate number of black managers in the english game. everything else is opinion.

i'm not sure if it's a fact, but it wouldn't surprise me if there is a higher proportion of blacks in football than in most other professions. likewise, i would suggest that the proportion of black players representing the national team is higher than the ratio of the black/white population in England.

let's put some perspective on this debate. football management is the arse-end of the professional game, just below refereeing. it is not some supreme position of power. in someways it's the most thankless job in the game and compared to the wages paid to the top players is also not as financially rewarding either.

i simply don't buy into the argument that owners who spend fortunes in transfer fees and salaries on black players, wouldn't be willing to do the same on black managers due to "overt and covert racism".

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Butch Manly » 07 Jun 2015, 11:27

'skope wrote:
The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


thanks, G. this thread has gone beyond debate and has got unpleasantly personal.


'skope wrote:
fuck off andrew, you fat cunt.


:roll:
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby 'skope » 07 Jun 2015, 11:28

Mabel Griff's Toyshop wrote:
'skope wrote:
The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


thanks, G. this thread has gone beyond debate and has got unpleasantly personal.


'skope wrote:
fuck off andrew, you fat cunt.


:roll:


just giving you some back, andrew!

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 11:43

K wrote:
The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.


Where does he specifically have a racist opinion?

Mind you, I don't count any answers of you surmising that he has one based upon him not answering a question because he doesn't know....
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 12:14

'skope wrote:i simply don't buy into the argument that owners who spend fortunes in transfer fees and salaries on black players, wouldn't be willing to do the same on black managers due to "overt and covert racism".



Okay we get that. It's all you've said on the subject.

If, as you say, it isn't racism which drives non white candidates to be six times less likely to get a job in the English pro-game (which is a statistical fact, that even you cannot challenge - the evidence has already been provided in the thread) then exactly what is driving this phenomena?
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 12:20

never/ever wrote:
K wrote:
The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.


Where does he specifically have a racist opinion?

Mind you, I don't count any answers of you surmising that he has one based upon him not answering a question because he doesn't know....



It's in the way he has tried to introduce qualifiers into the debate - the implied suggestion that there may be some clue in the potential lack of non white candidates getting badges etc. Rather than ask why that may be, it's left as a potential explanation.

Of course, if you really want to find out the reason for there being less candidates for coaching badges (if it is so, no one has produced any evidence to support that) is almost certainly the exact same reason as for the lack of non white managers in the English game.

One isn't a reason for the other - they are both a part of the exact same failing.
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby The Modernist » 07 Jun 2015, 12:29

K wrote:
You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.


"taking the racist line of the meritocracy". What does that even mean?
He hasn't said anything racist -fact. You should know better than to try and tar someone like that.
Personally I think he would have been better withdrawing from this one or at least making more effort to qualify what he was saying, but that doesn't mean he deserves to get called what you called him.

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 12:34

K wrote:
never/ever wrote:
K wrote:
It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.


Where does he specifically have a racist opinion?

Mind you, I don't count any answers of you surmising that he has one based upon him not answering a question because he doesn't know....


You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.



Would you like to be raked over the coals in a discussion simply because you have been acting like a cunt on occasion too?

You made a massive jump early in the discussion yourself accusing skope to be racist whereas he has never even come close to make a direct statement. The only thing I read is that he doesn't believe in the racist card being played in regards to the lack of black managers in football but he cannot explain why.

The question he rightfully asked- how many black people were following or have followed the FA Football managers' course and are elegible to be hired in a manager's position, was never answered. I am wondering how many black people are actually members of football clubs member boards. Is it a management culture's question, just like the number of women in management of leadership positions in general sports or business?

Do you know?
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 12:44

Diamond Dog wrote:

It's in the way he has tried to introduce qualifiers into the debate - the implied suggestion that there may be some clue in the potential lack of non white candidates getting badges etc. Rather than ask why that may be, it's left as a potential explanation.

Of course, if you really want to find out the reason for there being less candidates for coaching badges (if it is so, no one has produced any evidence to support that) is almost certainly the exact same reason as for the lack of non white managers in the English game.

One isn't a reason for the other - they are both a part of the exact same failing.



The lack of new managers in the Premier League comes as no surprise- it's an Old Boys Club- every season I see the merry-go-round of has-beens, often sacked and complete failures of coaches dancing from one EPL-club to another without any fresh faces to be seen within coees.
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 12:48

So it was an old boys white network before and we should just accept that that's how it's going to stay?
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 12:55

Diamond Dog wrote:So it was an old boys white network before and we should just accept that that's how it's going to stay?


I'd love to see a new generation of managers taking the place of yer Pardews, Lamberts, Allardyces, Bruces and so forth. Who are they and where are they though?
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 13:06

never/ever wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:So it was an old boys white network before and we should just accept that that's how it's going to stay?


I'd love to see a new generation of managers taking the place of yer Pardews, Lamberts, Allardyces, Bruces and so forth. Who are they and where are they though?


Kind of the point, isn't it?

You appear to be completely side-stepping the business of the 'white boys club' and suggesting the lack of new managers is the issue. My concern is where were the non white coaches then, where are they now...and why is that lack of representation so apparent?
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby The Modernist » 07 Jun 2015, 13:08

never/ever wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:So it was an old boys white network before and we should just accept that that's how it's going to stay?


I'd love to see a new generation of managers taking the place of yer Pardews, Lamberts, Allardyces, Bruces and so forth. Who are they and where are they though?


I think a new generation of managers, who are more analytical and apply all sorts of micro management techniques are emerging - yer Dykes, Warburtons, Howes etc. They're not black though so it's a debate for another thread.