Strummer V Lennon.

[Geezee]

I don't think you can say Lennon's politics were any more naive than Strummer, who after all had a fatal weakness for romanticising "rebels" which often lead him down some dodgy waters -Brigadi Rosse t-shirts anyone?
Interestingly I'd say Strummer was equally as much a product of the sixties counter cultura and its political ideas as Lennon. However Strummer's time was the less idealistic seventies and his politics were rooted in anger and defiance , which I think is why some people are saying his beliefs sounded more concrete.
It goes without saying Lennon had a greater cultural impact, but I think anything associated with The Beatles would win that battle.
I'm too old to have heroes, but they're certainly two figures I'm attracted to. Their flaws make them all the more interesting to me.

Word.

6th form politics from both of them, but at least Strummer brought some intelligence to the song writing.

I remember someone saying that lennon's politics bore all sophistication of a miss world contestant calling for world peace...

[RcL]

I don't think you can say Lennon's politics were any more naive than Strummer

Well, no one did. I said idealistic (and you might well say Strummer was too) and sentimental.

Lennon was pushing 30 before he got political - it was Dylan and Macca and mostly Yoko who pushed him in to that place. And it was 'the times' too. I'm not saying it wasn't 'felt', but he was an entertainer going with the flow in the late 60s.

I suspect with some of the lyrics on the first Clash album, Strummer was actually 'dumbing down' to be punk. The 24 year old who penned White Riot became the 25 year old who wrote White Man.

[RcL]

This book is very good on all this stuff about politics amongst the big acts in the late 60s. Beatles rowdies don't like the book as it doesn't take them 'seriously' enough. I couldn't see any Beatles cynicism myself, just a well-researched take on 1967 and all that, by a proven music writer.

[Geezee]

Lennon was pushing 30 before he got political - it was Dylan and Macca and mostly Yoko who pushed him in to that place. And it was 'the times' too. I'm not saying it wasn't 'felt', but he was an entertainer going with the flow in the late 60s.

Macca, really? I thought The Beatles was generally anti-politics, they didn't really allow politics into their art, which is one of the main reasons John Lennon felt artistically frustrated and confined because he wasn't allowed to express what he wanted to say. I've always felt that although Yoko played a relatively important role, Lennon discovered all this very much for himself, mainly as a result of the extraordinary backlash against the "Beatles versus God" argument but also his primal scream therapy. He was just a boiling cauldron of things to say, hence the overtly political and angry Plastic Ono Band album.

[Bungo the Mungo]

This one looks like it's just getting going...

[Quaco]

Based on this video, I'd guess that McCartney wasn't particularly politically aware or insightful in the sixties ...



He makes some nice points, but I can imagine being 40 years old at the time and seeing this "spokesman for the young" and rolling my eyes!

Artistically, he was seemingly a bit more clued-in, dabbling in avant-garde stuff, filmmaking, and so on.

[Bungo the Mungo]

Did you ever get that UNCUT Beatles' special, Jim?

[Quaco]

No, I don't think so -- which one? I don't buy many Beatle things any more, I must admit.

[Bungo the Mungo]

It came out a couple of months ago. It's excellent - mainly reprints of old interviews with the four of them from the 60s. They come across as very grounded and likeable, but in many ways (surprisingly?) unsophisticated.

[Quaco]

Well, they're Northerners!

[Piggly Wiggly]

I'm not super inclined to vote, for whatever reason, but I am of the mind (and I'm not the first one on this thread to make this observation) that the simplicity of Lennon's message was a strength. Something like "Revolution" (in many ways a prototype for "Won't Get Fooled Again") may not be massively ideologically advanced, but it does seem like he was in on the ground floor with the "Revolution, in and of itself, is subject to the same horrible corruption it seeks to displace" message in pop music.

[Bungo the Mungo]

Yes.

I find a lot of that 60s love-and-peace sloganeering quite interesting, even exciting, however naive it may appear today (or did then!).

I really can't say the same thing about artists doing similar things these days. I'm not quite sure why.

The 60s really is like a magic bucket where you put any old shit into it and it comes out as gold.

[Quaco]

Maybe it's harder to be naive today?

[Piggly Wiggly]

The 60s really is like a magic bucket where you put any old shit into it and it comes out as gold.

Absolutely.

[Piggly Wiggly]

Maybe it's harder to be naive today?

Yeah - I'd say the likes of Vietnam/Nixon/etc. are absolute fucking child's play compared to the more myriad types of disenfranchisement your average person feels today.

[jim courier]

Strummer practiced what he preached more than Lennon that's for sure.

[Quaco]

This relates to the other Clash vs. VU thread. The Clash really seemed like the band you'd want to create, one that was relevant and passionate and stuck to their principles and was there for the people, and so on. I've never grown to love their music, but they have that feeling to me. Sort of the ultimate band you'd talk about forming with your friends.

[Bungo the Mungo]

Maybe it's harder to be naive today?

Yes, I think so.

[Piggly Wiggly]

This relates to the other Clash vs. VU thread. The Clash really seemed like the band you'd want to create, one that was relevant and passionate and stuck to their principles and was there for the people, and so on. I've never grown to love their music, but they have that feeling to me. Sort of the ultimate band you'd talk about forming with your friends.

I've always said the same thing about the Minutemen.

As principled as it gets (shit, Watt even talks about using pillows as "fart cushions" in the van and then swapping them out for fresh ones at hotels!).

[Bungo the Mungo]

I'm not really a Minutemen fan, but I'd really like to have been in their band!

I followed Mike Watt's blog for a while, and he comes across as a great person. Someone with their eyes wide open the whole time, enthusiastic yet unspoiled by the whole thing.