Strummer V Lennon.
Strummer V Lennon.
No not in music per se but rather social and world commentary, more in touch with society and better at expressing it.
I can't delete this for some reason, so can it be moved to the music section please.
I can't delete this for some reason, so can it be moved to the music section please.
- Loki
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
You mean like Bono vs. Sting?
whodathunkit wrote: Somewhere it's always 1972.
Re: Strummer V Lennon.
Loki wrote:You mean like Bono vs. Sting?
No
I meant in a serious way not them two clowns.
- Quaco
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
Lennon was a better songwriter than just about anybody, but in retrospect his world view was extremely naive and simplistic, not to mention changeable. I'm sure Strummer was more in touch than Lennon was. I'm sure people like Lennon, if not Lennon himself, acted as a warning to Strummer for what not to be like.
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- RcL
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
I think that's right (well, I don't agree about your top rating of Lennon, but that's not what this thread is about) - Strummer was very well educated and travelled the world as a child. His age during his Clash songwriting years was two or three years older than Lennon in the Beatles - which can mean a lot when you are in your 20s, especially with regard to the thread's theme. I think if you become very famous before you are 25, you suffer from a sort of arrested development. Lennon's political songs tended to be sentimental and idealistic, Strummer's ones moved quite quickly from the abrasive (eg London's Burning) to the subtle and wordy (London's Calling, Spanish Bombs).
- Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
Lennon's world view may have been simpler, but I think that was a strength. He certainly had more impact politically than Strummer ever dreamed of.
“Remember I have said good things about benevolent despots before.” - Jimbo
- RcL
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
I agree with that, Todd - but it's very little versus less than very little, isn't it?
- Quaco
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
I think it was a strength too, in that the man on the street is really more capable of identifying with simpler sentiments in most cases. And when Lennon tried being more specific about his critiques (Some Time in NYC), it felt completely wrong and petty, rather than universal.
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- Loki
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
I dunno.....Bono v Sting might have been more scintillating.....
whodathunkit wrote: Somewhere it's always 1972.
- Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
I think Lennon actually changed how people think - and often in a way that influenced their core values. I don't think a song boasting a more sophisticated critique on Western foreign policy has the same effect as Lennon's ability to write songs that distilled his ideas down to almost an ad campaign.
Also - I think the temptation to view Lennon's political acumen as naive misses the mark a bit. A song like Revolution certainly takes a pretty sophisticated position - especially for its time.
Also - I think the temptation to view Lennon's political acumen as naive misses the mark a bit. A song like Revolution certainly takes a pretty sophisticated position - especially for its time.
“Remember I have said good things about benevolent despots before.” - Jimbo
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
I think you woulda done a lot of listening with either.
I agree with Quaco's views on both guys but I think Lennon would've been more fun to goof around with. I'm not the kind of guy that needs to save the world in every discussion I have. Maybe Strummer was fun too, but he didn't show that side too much in interviews.
I agree with Quaco's views on both guys but I think Lennon would've been more fun to goof around with. I'm not the kind of guy that needs to save the world in every discussion I have. Maybe Strummer was fun too, but he didn't show that side too much in interviews.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk!
Re: Strummer V Lennon.
I don't think you can say Lennon's politics were any more naive than Strummer, who after all had a fatal weakness for romanticising "rebels" which often lead him down some dodgy waters -Brigadi Rosse t-shirts anyone?
Interestingly I'd say Strummer was equally as much a product of the sixties counter cultura and its political ideas as Lennon. However Strummer's time was the less idealistic seventies and his politics were rooted in anger and defiance , which I think is why some people are saying his beliefs sounded more concrete.
It goes without saying Lennon had a greater cultural impact, but I think anything associated with The Beatles would win that battle.
I'm too old to have heroes, but they're certainly two figures I'm attracted to. Their flaws make them all the more interesting to me.
Interestingly I'd say Strummer was equally as much a product of the sixties counter cultura and its political ideas as Lennon. However Strummer's time was the less idealistic seventies and his politics were rooted in anger and defiance , which I think is why some people are saying his beliefs sounded more concrete.
It goes without saying Lennon had a greater cultural impact, but I think anything associated with The Beatles would win that battle.
I'm too old to have heroes, but they're certainly two figures I'm attracted to. Their flaws make them all the more interesting to me.
- Corporate whore
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
Admiral G wrote:I don't think you can say Lennon's politics were any more naive than Strummer, who after all had a fatal weakness for romanticising "rebels" which often lead him down some dodgy waters -Brigadi Rosse t-shirts anyone?
Interestingly I'd say Strummer was equally as much a product of the sixties counter cultura and its political ideas as Lennon. However Strummer's time was the less idealistic seventies and his politics were rooted in anger and defiance , which I think is why some people are saying his beliefs sounded more concrete.
It goes without saying Lennon had a greater cultural impact, but I think anything associated with The Beatles would win that battle.
I'm too old to have heroes, but they're certainly two figures I'm attracted to. Their flaws make them all the more interesting to me.
Word.
6th form politics from both of them, but at least Strummer brought some intelligence to the song writing.
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
I'd love to talk '50s rock 'n' roll and R&B with both guys.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk!
- Phenomenal Cat
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
corporate whohohore wrote:6th form politics from both of them, but at least Strummer brought some intelligence to the song writing.
Did Lennon become the working-class doofus somewhere along the way?
Anyhow, plenty of people have done Polemic Rock. Lennon brought a more personal element, which means I listened more closely and found messages that resonated within. I never got that from Joe. He just barked.
kath wrote:i will make it my mission to nail you.
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
Familial Christian Holiday wrote:I never got that from Joe. He just barked.
He bit me once, you know.
- toomanyhatz
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
Anyone who knows me knows who I prefer as a songwriter, but I do think it's an interesting comparison as both were often blamed for faking working-class roots that they never had. I'm not sure it's completely unfair (in either case), but I'm not sure it's totally relevant either.
The difference for me is that Lennon personalized it more, and had more of a sense of humor about it. And the fact that he threw himself into whatever he was doing while he was doing it made him seem more...well, I'm not sure how to say it. Not quite committed, not quite serious, maybe...compelling? That's probably why he had more affect overall. Well, that and that Beatle thing, anyway.
By the way, I know I've said this before, but I've known a few people who met Lennon during his "radical" days and every last one of them said that both he and Yoko were very approachable and friendly to everyone, in the movement or out. I'm not sure I know anyone who's met Strummer, but I doubt he was as universally liked in-person.
The difference for me is that Lennon personalized it more, and had more of a sense of humor about it. And the fact that he threw himself into whatever he was doing while he was doing it made him seem more...well, I'm not sure how to say it. Not quite committed, not quite serious, maybe...compelling? That's probably why he had more affect overall. Well, that and that Beatle thing, anyway.
By the way, I know I've said this before, but I've known a few people who met Lennon during his "radical" days and every last one of them said that both he and Yoko were very approachable and friendly to everyone, in the movement or out. I'm not sure I know anyone who's met Strummer, but I doubt he was as universally liked in-person.
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- der nister
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
i don't know if either of them had much impact politically
the Clash were part of a scene that sought to be "in touch" to be "relevant" which may have been easy when they started out in the UK, then got less so
the Beatles came of age during the 60's as a youthful political consciousness was birthing, they didn't seek out relevance, but because they were so popular and intelligent they had it foisted upon them
i never met Lennon, but every time i met Joe he was warm, welcoming, and engaging and ready for intense discussions with all kinds of followers and believers
the Clash were part of a scene that sought to be "in touch" to be "relevant" which may have been easy when they started out in the UK, then got less so
the Beatles came of age during the 60's as a youthful political consciousness was birthing, they didn't seek out relevance, but because they were so popular and intelligent they had it foisted upon them
i never met Lennon, but every time i met Joe he was warm, welcoming, and engaging and ready for intense discussions with all kinds of followers and believers
It's kinda depressing for a music forum to be proud of not knowing musicians.
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
On Donner, On Blitzen, On Chuy... wrote:Familial Christian Holiday wrote:I never got that from Joe. He just barked.
He bit me once, you know.
You got off easy - his bark was worse.
Sir John Coan wrote:Nolamike is speaking nothing but sense here.
Loki wrote:Mike is Hookfinger's shill.
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Re: Strummer V Lennon.
By the way, I know I've said this before, but I've known a few people who met Lennon during his "radical" days and every last one of them said that both he and Yoko were very approachable and friendly to everyone, in the movement or out. I'm not sure I know anyone who's met Strummer, but I doubt he was as universally liked in-person
I got his autograph in 1984 along with the rest of Clsh Mach 2. They weren't amazingly super friendly or anything but I thought it was cool that they hung out, talked & signed stuff for everyone who bothered to wait around for them.
Jimbo wrote:I guess I am over Graham Nash's politics. Hopelessly naive by the standards I've molded for myself these days.