Does Obama deserve a kicking?

[Sneelock]

Why the apocalyptic predictions, then (esp. given who he's up against)?

because the people in the prediction business work for big companies who prefer regulating themselves and pretty much doing whatever they want. sure, they're going to do whatever they want whoever is in charge but they are pumping money up the BUTT of this "tea party" thing. it's a matter of degree.

a perceived grassroots revolt that doesn't want big corporations to pay taxes, be regulated or get sued. How could they not be in love with that? so, people who should be fact checking or buttonholing some of these goons are holding their fingers to their chins and saying "well, I can see there are strong feelings on both sides!"
Their bosses want the government off their backs and they pay these people well to pretend this will extend to Mr & Mrs Six Pack - it won't.

it's just another wedge issue extrava-ganzer gussied up like "an exciting new political movement" a lot of people are thinking this is true because that's the way it looks on t.v.

[The Write Profile]

[Lemon Yoghourt]

Did anyone see Obama on The Daily Show?

[Johnny Dumfries]

Did anyone see Obama on The Daily Show?

yes. Still think (sorry - know) he's the best there's been in my lifetime, certainly.
You can argue about his short-comings, but given what he was dealt, no-one couldve done any better (and they could definitely done a lot worse).

[Mr Maps]

[Lemon Yoghourt]

Did anyone see Obama on The Daily Show?

yes. Still think (sorry - know) he's the best there's been in my lifetime, certainly.
You can argue about his short-comings, but given what he was dealt, no-one couldve done any better (and they could definitely done a lot worse).

I think he did a good job of defending his achievements, especially healthcare. I was wondering though, depsite Stewart's criticism, surely this demographic - young liberals - were never going to abandon Obama or the Dems next week?

A pet hate about the Daily Show, Stewart and various guests refer to the UK as England an awful lot. For smart people that is a bit ignorant.

[sloopjohnc]

Obama is the smartest President we've had in a long time.

Well, since the last Democrat in the White House anyway.

Last night, on the Lawrence O'Donnell show, he interviewed the heads of four separate Tea Party groups. When they all confirmed that they wanted to get rid of the "socialistic" programs in the government, he asked them if they wanted to get rid of Social Security or Medicare. None of 'em stood up.

[Hepcat]

Are you for real?

Well if that's not obvious to you yet I suppose I'll have to do a better job of demonstrating precisely how real I am in the future.

First of all, with what will you buy shit? Oh, you will let the government print money?

Don't be daft. Libertarians are opposed to governments printing money. Some may grudgingly allow governments to strike coins but the exchange rate between the coins and paper money would be left up to market forces.

How liberal of you.

Well yes. Libertarians are liberals, as the term was used in the nineteenth century. Or don't you even know that?

And if your Smith and Wesson blows up in your hand how will you get recompense? Oh, via a court system, you think. Cool, daddyo. But the courthouse is downtown, how will you get there? On the government built road, of course. How else?

Well yes. A government monopoly over the road system has been in place for several hundred years so I don't have much choice there. But what precisely is wrong with seeking to preserve and expand my freedom of choice in other ways? Why the authoritarian impulse on your part? Are you that power hungry?

Look, the system is far from perfect but the system can be perfected.

Look Jimbo. You know you've messed up your own life. Don't try to deny it. We all have. So what makes you think you can run everyone else's life as well, even in concert with your buddies in the government? There is no agency that can plan the life of even one individual. So why then does the government think it can plan the life of that collective of individuals known as the economy - especially with all the empirical evidence to the contrary?

...and let's make a better place.

Sorry. I lack the authoritarian impulse that would have me trying to construct what I think should be a utopia for my neighbours. I'll let them work on their own. Hopefully they'll extend me the same courtesy.

{Obama's) also made too many compromises, especially with libertarian/free market types.

Keep in mind that free markets, not governments, are the engine of wealth creation.

And what precisely troubles you about this concept of choice i.e. the free market? Why is it that you think it should be taken from individuals? Is it some grand social engineering scheme you have in mind? Do I need to remind you that the others that have been tried this last century and a half have been disasters?

[Nolamike]

Huh? You would expect my Libertarian beliefs to be shaken by swirling winds?

Let the chaos begin!

Are you for real? First of all, with what will you buy shit? Oh, you will let the government print money? How liberal of you. And if your Smith and Wesson blows up in your hand how will you get recompense? Oh, via a court system, you think. Cool, daddyo. But the courthouse is downtown, how will you get there? On the government built road, of course. How else?

Look, the system is far from perfect but the system can be perfected. Give up this libertarianism, pay your fair share of taxes and let's make a better place.

Yep. Libertarianism is something that, in principle, if the world were a perfect place, would make a lot of sense - it is the same basic thing as the idea of hippy communes, just looked at from a different angle. As it stands, though, we've got a huge, populous, country in a very complex world. Libertarianism in practice would be nothing but anarchy/chaos.

The Katrina reference earlier - as a New Orleanian, I would've been completely fucked without the government (of course, I was completely fucked because of the government, due to the construction of the MR-GO and the shitty levee systems, which actually caused the flooding of the city). When it hit, I was a student, but my wife had a full-time, professional career, we had some money in savings, and we had a car that got us out of town right before it hit - we were a lot better off than the majority of folks who had to evacuate. But without the FEMA checks we received, we would've been fucked.

And on a much more serious level, the people who didn't own cars (yeah, even in a society with a good deal of laws and regulations in place to protect workers, a lot of folks don't make enough to afford a car), and those who didn't have money for other means of evacuation, they would've been left to die of thirst/starvation/drowning. Did you even see the scenes by the Convention Center, Hepcat? What, we shouldn't have sent in the National Guard, and should've just left thousands and thousands of people to die? We should've left people to bake to death on their roofs? No offense, but seriously - fuck off.

[Nolamike]

{Obama's) also made too many compromises, especially with libertarian/free market types.

Keep in mind that free markets, not governments, are the engine of wealth creation.

And what precisely troubles you about this concept of choice i.e. the free market? Why is it that you think it should be taken from individuals? Is it some grand social engineering scheme you have in mind? Do I need to remind you that the others that have been tried this last century and a half have been disasters?

If you look at the recent financial meltdown, it was the lack of regulations and the rolling back of regulations that fucked over all of us. Even that Ayn-Rand-boot-licker Alan Greenspan's admitted that "Hey! A truly free market system just doesn't work - I was wrong!"

[Nolamike]

Huh? You would expect my Libertarian beliefs to be shaken by swirling winds?

Let the chaos begin!

Are you for real? First of all, with what will you buy shit? Oh, you will let the government print money? How liberal of you. And if your Smith and Wesson blows up in your hand how will you get recompense? Oh, via a court system, you think. Cool, daddyo. But the courthouse is downtown, how will you get there? On the government built road, of course. How else?

Look, the system is far from perfect but the system can be perfected. Give up this libertarianism, pay your fair share of taxes and let's make a better place.

Yep. Libertarianism is something that, in principle, if the world were a perfect place, would make a lot of sense - it is the same basic thing as the idea of hippy communes, just looked at from a different angle. As it stands, though, we've got a huge, populous, country in a very complex world. Libertarianism in practice would be nothing but anarchy/chaos.

The Katrina reference earlier - as a New Orleanian, I would've been completely fucked without the government (of course, I was completely fucked because of the government, due to the construction of the MR-GO and the shitty levee systems, which actually caused the flooding of the city). When it hit, I was a student, but my wife had a full-time, professional career, we had some money in savings, and we had a car that got us out of town right before it hit - we were a lot better off than the majority of folks who had to evacuate. But without the FEMA checks we received, we would've been fucked.

And on a much more serious level, the people who didn't own cars (yeah, even in a society with a good deal of laws and regulations in place to protect workers, a lot of folks don't make enough to afford a car), and those who didn't have money for other means of evacuation, they would've been left to die of thirst/starvation/drowning. Did you even see the scenes by the Convention Center, Hepcat? What, we shouldn't have sent in the National Guard, and should've just left thousands and thousands of people to die? We should've left people to bake to death on their roofs? No offense, but seriously - fuck off.

Oh, and another point on this - two of the biggest reasons why New Orleans and its people were so vulnerable to the storm surge through the MR Go and the Lake were due to private industry fucking us. The massive erosion of Louisiana's coast can be traced to a combination of factors, but two of the more significant ones are (1) oil companies tearing the wetlands to hell to build thousands of canals to make it easier to get oil, and (2) the negligence of fur farms in the '30s, who imported and then accidentally released nutrias into the wild, which have literally eaten away at the wetlands (they burrow under and graze on the vegetation that holds the mud/dirt in place, causing it to be washed away). We've been losing several football fields a day of coastal lands for seven decades now (and it is even worse than it was in this '93 map):

[Snarfyguy]

And what precisely troubles you about this concept of choice i.e. the free market?

It's susceptibility to abuse.

Deregulated markets consistently turn into feeding troughs for the unscrupulous.

How is that not obvious?

[Sneelock]

I can't help but think of the McSweeney's satire "...your son hasn't read Atlas Shrugged"
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2010/8/12hague.html

[Nolamike]

I can't help but think of the McSweeney's satire "...your son hasn't read Atlas Shrugged"
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2010/8/12hague.html

[Hepcat]

Even that Ayn-Rand-boot-licker....

Let me just say for now that I'm in no way an adherent of Ayn Rand's way of thinking. While some Libertarians are, others such as myself style themselves as anarcho-capitalists.

[Brian Wilson]

I'll comment on this when I have more time on my hands.