BCB 100 - The Smiths

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Penk!
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Postby Penk! » 19 Jun 2006, 19:07

Owen wrote:
Jarg Armani wrote:
Penk wrote:
Jarg Armani wrote:
Penk wrote:[ I guess if I'm honest Morrissey's hypocritical refusal to admit his sexuality is probably a bit annoying .


So his refusal to give you full access to his personal life is hypocritical and annoying.

OK


No, his hypocrisy is annoying.

.


For the life of me I can't see what is hypocritical about not informing you as to the facts of his sexuality.


Hypocrisy would be the "making up another sexuality and banging on and on about it" bit, or lying as it's generally called


Yes that, with additional "convincing thousands of fans that you're giving a voice to their own feelings by doing so."
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Postby Owen » 19 Jun 2006, 19:09

DiamondDog wrote:
Owen wrote:Hypocrisy would be the "making up another sexuality and banging on and on about it" bit, or lying as it's generally called


which sexuality did he make up?


"Oh i'm celibate me" is a step beyond 'not wanting to talk about his private life'

Maybe it was actually true at the time i suppose.

it's not something i care all that much about, although i'd guess a lot of people at the time did, but it does seem hypocritical.

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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 19:29

Gone beyond talking about music then? This happens every time I single-handedly (a little help from yomp, maybe) win a debate. The losers always move on to a different topic to avoid confronting their defeat.

Smug smug smug 8-) .

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Postby copehead » 19 Jun 2006, 19:30

Owen wrote:
DiamondDog wrote:
Owen wrote:Hypocrisy would be the "making up another sexuality and banging on and on about it" bit, or lying as it's generally called


which sexuality did he make up?


"Oh i'm celibate me" is a step beyond 'not wanting to talk about his private life'

Maybe it was actually true at the time i suppose.

it's not something i care all that much about, although i'd guess a lot of people at the time did, but it does seem hypocritical.


What a rubbish post.

So now you admit that his celebate life style at the time was probably true

But it still seems hypocritical.

Well that seems like a stupid argument.

Just another stick to beat him with for some people, leading that army of celebate students up the garden path, yeh right.

I hold no brief for the guy, I like his music a lot, I like his interviews, but his views on animal testing are vile and abhorant to me and, yes, his appearance on Ross was arrogance of a high order.

But beating him up because he has kept his private life private is silly
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Postby Penk! » 19 Jun 2006, 19:34

Oscar wrote:Gone beyond talking about music then? This happens every time I single-handedly (a little help from yomp, maybe) win a debate. The losers always move on to a different topic to avoid confronting their defeat.

Smug smug smug 8-) .


Actually it's happened here because some people are so determined to press the 'Morrissey for Pope' claim that they pick out the one throwaway line from a discussion that developed on the sidelines of the one about the music three pages ago that casts some doubt on his claim to be the Most Amazing Godlike Genius In The World Ever and fume over it despite the fact that the people who actually said it in the first place also said THEY WEREN'T REALLY BOTHERED ABOUT IT AND IT WASN'T THAT FUCKING IMPORTANT.
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Postby Owen » 19 Jun 2006, 19:39

Jarg Armani wrote:
Owen wrote:
DiamondDog wrote:
Owen wrote:Hypocrisy would be the "making up another sexuality and banging on and on about it" bit, or lying as it's generally called


which sexuality did he make up?


"Oh i'm celibate me" is a step beyond 'not wanting to talk about his private life'

Maybe it was actually true at the time i suppose.

it's not something i care all that much about, although i'd guess a lot of people at the time did, but it does seem hypocritical.


What a rubbish post.

So now you admit that his celebate life style at the time was probably true


Do i fuck, I said it might be true, I haven't read any books on them or anything or ever cared enough to read anything about it, I remember being surprised a few smiths threads back when Prof mentioned that a particular cover star was Morrissey's boyfriend, so i'd imagine there are people who keep more up to date with such stuff, and that the celibacy stuff is pretty much discredited.

Personally based on experience of human nature, I'd imagine someone who is fairly clearly gay now was probably gay back then too but wary of mentioning it for whate ver reason. But the celibacy 'may' have been true, hence my use of the word 'maybe' rather than the probably that you seem to have read

But it still seems hypocritical.


making a big deal about proclamations about your sexuality is a long way from the 'privacy' argument you tried to raise a few posts back. He didn't talk about privacy he based part of his shtick around soundbytey comments on celibacy that a lot of people believed, i remember Griff talking about how seriously he believed them.

He could have been celibate, some people are i suppose but i'd guess the truth is probably different.

Well that seems like a stupid argument.

Just another stick to beat him with for some people, leading that army of celebate students up the garden path, yeh right.


It's not a stick at all, i couldn't care less, any silly 80s student who made any lifestyle choices based on Morrissey deserves far worse than a few years of celibacy, i didn't raise the issue. But someone, you i think but i can't be arsed to look at the topic review window, asked where he had ever been a hypocrite about his sexuality when the answer is fairly clear.

I hold no brief for the guy, I like his music a lot, I like his interviews, but his views on animal testing are vile and abhorant to me and, yes, his appearance on Ross was arrogance of a high order.


he didn't actually seem that arrogant to me, he seemed like a slightly unintelligent man out of his depth away from fawning indykid music journos, and ross was far more sycophantic fanboy than he generally is. He just didn't seem up to actual discourse, only variations on the same soundbytes he's been using for 20 years.


But beating him up because he has kept his private life private is silly


he didn't keep it private, he made it a manifesto point. Even if the celibacy was genuine he very clearly used his sexuality (or lack of it) as a gimmick.

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Postby Matt Wilson » 19 Jun 2006, 19:44

Owen said:Personally based on experience of human nature, I'd imagine someone who is fairly clearly gay now was probably gay back then too but wary of mentioning it for whate ver reason. But the celibacy 'may' have been true, hence my use of the word 'maybe' rather than the probably that you seem to have read

He was always gay. That's the subtext of most Smiths songs, just read the lyrics.

I don't know why some fans continue to deny this or play coy when it's brought up.

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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 19:47

Penk wrote:
Oscar wrote:Gone beyond talking about music then? This happens every time I single-handedly (a little help from yomp, maybe) win a debate. The losers always move on to a different topic to avoid confronting their defeat.

Smug smug smug 8-) .


Actually it's happened here because some people are so determined to press the 'Morrissey for Pope' claim that they pick out the one throwaway line from a discussion that developed on the sidelines of the one about the music three pages ago that casts some doubt on his claim to be the Most Amazing Godlike Genius In The World Ever and fume over it despite the fact that the people who actually said it in the first place also said THEY WEREN'T REALLY BOTHERED ABOUT IT AND IT WASN'T THAT FUCKING IMPORTANT.


It's happened here because I kicked everybody's arse and pressed you all so tightly into a corner so that the only direction you could all move in was the cheap n nasty "Morrissey is a gay!" stance.

Yawn...

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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 19:50

Matt Wilson wrote:He was always gay. That's the subtext of most Smiths songs, just read the lyrics.
Just how gay exactly?

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Postby Matt Wilson » 19 Jun 2006, 19:52

Oscar wrote:
Matt Wilson wrote:He was always gay. That's the subtext of most Smiths songs, just read the lyrics.
Just how gay exactly?


Well Oscar, do you want me to post some Smiths lyrics for you?
Since you seem to be unaware of what he was on about.

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Postby The Prof » 19 Jun 2006, 19:55

Oscar wrote:
Matt Wilson wrote:He was always gay. That's the subtext of most Smiths songs, just read the lyrics.
Just how gay exactly?


53% or to put it another way 3.496


Anyway, Owen I think it will have been ALB mentioning the person on the cover of one of his records being a lover. I don't think I did.

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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 19:56

Matt Wilson wrote:
Oscar wrote:
Matt Wilson wrote:He was always gay. That's the subtext of most Smiths songs, just read the lyrics.
Just how gay exactly?


Well Oscar, do you want me to post some Smiths lyrics for you?
Since you seem to be unaware of what he was on about.


Ooooh, I'm quaking in my adidas sambas! Do yer worse, Matty.

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Postby Matt Wilson » 19 Jun 2006, 19:57

Oscar wrote:
Matt Wilson wrote:
Oscar wrote:
Matt Wilson wrote:He was always gay. That's the subtext of most Smiths songs, just read the lyrics.
Just how gay exactly?


Well Oscar, do you want me to post some Smiths lyrics for you?
Since you seem to be unaware of what he was on about.


Ooooh, I'm quaking in my adidas sambas! Do yer worse, Matty.


Why? Are you denying that there's a gay subtext?

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Postby Owen » 19 Jun 2006, 19:57

Matt Wilson wrote:He was always gay. That's the subtext of most Smiths songs, just read the lyrics.


I know that, you know that, anyone who can read who doesn't cling to 1983 NME interviews in a way that makes the average fundamentalist seem openminded knows that.

It's what the majority of the first album is about. I'd guess that actually played a huge part in why they had such an impact on people

I can understand why he didn't actually want to say so at the time. I can actually understand why he would want privacy now too, people dont have to turn their sexuality into an issue, it really is something i couldn't care less about.

But i can understand the idea that the whole celibacy thing was hypocritcal, even if it isn't it clearly is him making sexuality part of the package rather than 'not informing you about facts of his sex life'

He did at length, and probably falsely.

It's not really a big deal, and i am a huge smiths fan, although one who increasingly gets a little put off by the rubbish written about them, but if people are going to ask 'what hypocrisy' then the issue has been raised
Last edited by Owen on 19 Jun 2006, 19:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 19:58

Classic Prof wrote:
Oscar wrote:
Matt Wilson wrote:He was always gay. That's the subtext of most Smiths songs, just read the lyrics.
Just how gay exactly?


53% or to put it another way 3.496


Taking into account the seasonally adjusted figures, I'd put it at 64% or 9 bob.

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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 20:00

Matt Wilson wrote:
Oscar wrote:
Matt Wilson wrote:
Oscar wrote:
Matt Wilson wrote:He was always gay. That's the subtext of most Smiths songs, just read the lyrics.
Just how gay exactly?


Well Oscar, do you want me to post some Smiths lyrics for you?
Since you seem to be unaware of what he was on about.


Ooooh, I'm quaking in my adidas sambas! Do yer worse, Matty.


Why? Are you denying that there's a gay subtext?


I think I would challenge you to prove that his lyrics weren't written from an asexual context or even from a female perspective. Get on with it.

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Postby copehead » 19 Jun 2006, 20:05

Owen wrote:he didn't keep it private, he made it a manifesto point. Even if the celibacy was genuine he very clearly used his sexuality (or lack of it) as a gimmick.


He did keep his private life private. He claimed he was celebate and that he didn't much like sex and that was the end of it.

Do you really think that if he was whoring his way around the world in the 80s that there wouldn't be kiss and tell stories platered all over the press?

The argument that he is a hypocrit over his pronouncements about his sexuality is hysterical, as far as I can see he told the truth. There is no evidence to the contrary, as you have admitted, so to then pronounce him a hypocrit is ridiculous.

It smacks more of your distaste for the man than rationality
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Postby Matt Wilson » 19 Jun 2006, 20:08

Oscar wrote: I think I would challenge you to prove that his lyrics weren't written from an asexual context or even from a female perspective. Get on with it.


OK then:

Reel Around the Fountain

It's time the tale were told
Of how you took a child
And you made him old Well, there you have it. An older guy seducing a yonger one.

Reel around the fountain
Slap me on the patio
I'll take it now
Oh ... "I'll take it now." Gee, what do you suppose he's talking about?

Fifteen minutes with you
Well, I wouldn't say no
Oh, people said that you were virtually dead
And they were so wrong

Fifteen minutes with you
Oh, well, I wouldn't say no
Oh, people said that you were easily led
And they were half-right
Oh, they ... oh, they were half-right, oh They were half right because the younger guy in the song led the older one into the sack just as much as the other way around, get it?

Fifteen minutes with you
Oh, I wouldn't say no
Oh, people see no worth in you
Oh, but I do.
Fifteen minutes with you
Oh, I wouldn't say no
Oh, people see no worth in you I'd say he's in love with the older one, no?
I do.
Oh, I ... oh, I do
Oh ...

I dreamt about you last night
And I fell out of bed twice
You can pin and mount me like a butterfly "Pin and mount me" He's not addressing a woman, Oscar...
But "take me to the haven of your bed"
Was something that you never said
Two lumps, please
You're the bee's knees
But so am I

Oh, meet me at the fountain
Shove me on the patio
I'll take it slowly Once again--pretty explicit.
Oh ...

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Postby Owen » 19 Jun 2006, 20:11

Jarg Armani wrote:, so to then pronounce him a hypocrit is ridiculous.

It smacks more of your distaste for the man than rationality


I didn't make the hypocrite comments, just found it very obvious what they were referring to when you were claiming ignorance.

I dont actually dislike morrissey either, he was very good for quite a while, then got shit in much the same way as 99% of other artists with similar length careers.

I just find the level of worship amusing in a slightly depressing way.

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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 20:20

Matt Wilson wrote:
Oscar wrote: I think I would challenge you to prove that his lyrics weren't written from an asexual context or even from a female perspective. Get on with it.


OK then:

Reel Around the Fountain


Boy with older woman. If it were a gay relationship, people wouldn't have said "he was easily led". They would have said "he's a right pufta that one". There's no evidence whatsoever that Morrissey is singing about a gay relationship.

"Slap me on the patio, I'll take it now". He's talking about the slap :roll:

"You can pin and mount me like a butterfly" - as a possesion. You don't fuck a butterfly, you display it.



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