The Unique Modernist! wrote:Is anyone else struggling to imagine an angry Owen Hargreaves.
Even a vaguely purposeful one would be nice
Penk wrote:Unlucky Bear wrote:I am not twisting anything.
OK. Show me where I "gave up my theory", where I tried to imply that "the whole thing was a confidence trick designed to draw people in with photographs from the classic films" and where I say that they're a "totally miserabilist band" and I might stop "talking out of my arse."
But no, you won't show me any of that, will you? The red mist will descend and you'll read even this post as me saying "I HATE THE SMITHS" and just lay into me without really paying attention to what I've been saying.
Like I said, I can't be arsed trying to argue over it any more.
Penk wrote:Penk wrote:But no, you won't show me any of that, will you?
Penk wrote: the Arctic Monkeys are a lot more vivacious and energetic. There's plenty of pose but they actually have fun rather than being so determinedly miserable and I think it's reflected in the music, they're shouty and punky and noisy where the Smiths are dreary and grey.
This is just an idea, before the Smiths fans get the torches and pitchforks out again, but was the more upbeat British indie that really galvanised British rock in the late '80s perhaps a reaction to and against the dourness of the Smiths?
Penk wrote:If you don't like the songs then of course you're going to find them depressing, the fucking Beach Boys would be depressing if they had Morrissey lowing about his sex life and death and how it was grim up north all the time.
Penk wrote:Yeah exactly. I wasn't there in 1984 (well I was, just) so I don't know what it was like at the time. What I do know is that Morrissey's spent 25 years being the most self-important man on the planet so it's impossible to separate that from his songs and with that in mind they do come across as tedious moaning about his own problems and frankly they're just completely disconnected from my own experiences and feelings and I couldn't care less about him, so I just find him a complete bore.
Penk wrote:[
We've been through that already though, teenagers are getting into them for the miserabilism and the fact that they are now seen as the archetypal bedwetting student band, whether or not that was what they were in 1985 is irrelevant because it's why they are winning new 17-year-old fans now. For every one who likes them purely on a musical basis there will be half a dozen who like them because of "you go home and you cry and you want to die." My '40-somethings' comment was in response to Oscar's post, I was pointing out that the 'same kids' strictly speaking might have different reasons for getting into new bands that reminded them of the Smiths than people have for being attracted to the Smiths now.
Penk wrote:Griff asked
where did you get these facts from, ed?
Penk wrote:[as Owen and I have both pointed out the majority of school and college-age Smiths fans these days are into them because of the bedwetting side of it..
Penk wrote:[I do like some aspects of the masterplan though, the running theme with the cover artwork is an attractive and oddly touching idea, I can see that that kind of romanticised imagery could draw people in.
fange wrote:One of the things i really dislike in this life is people raising their voices in German.
fange wrote:One of the things i really dislike in this life is people raising their voices in German.
Pretty Boy Floyd wrote:When it comes down to it, I really find it hard to understand how anyone can not like the Smiths. Or at the very least not appreciate the phenomenal talent. So what if it appeared staged? So what if Morrissey's solo career has tainted his reputation a bit? McCartney's done some atrocious stuff but I never hear a bad word against the Beatles. The Smiths were not about Morrissey, they were about the combined songwriting of Marr and him together combining their very different talents to write timeless masterpieces. Morrissey by himself is only half the picture and I really don't consider his work to be really related to anything the Smiths did. Does Squire's solo shite make 'She Bangs the Drums' sound worse?
If you can listen to 'I Know it's Over' and can't appreciate the genius, I reckon you are missing a piece of your brain.
fange wrote:One of the things i really dislike in this life is people raising their voices in German.
Classic Prof wrote:Penk wrote:OK. Show me where I .....say that they're a "totally miserabilist band"Penk wrote:..so determinedly miserable
Close enough innit?
You argue your case quite well Ed, but you miss the point and the joy of the band.
It's your loss but I guess you'll have to live with it.
fange wrote:One of the things i really dislike in this life is people raising their voices in German.
Penk wrote:You argue your case quite well Ed, but you miss the point and the joy of the band.
It's your loss but I guess you'll have to live with it.
Are you sure you don't mean "everything you say is totally stupid and wrong and for that you must die"?
Penk wrote:The Smiths were very much about Morrissey because while you may not have noticed it, he was the one who did all the singing and wrote all the lyrics.
I just don't like most of the songs, I'm not keen on the group's style and I don't happen to rate Morrissey as a lyricist. That's all. Everything else is more or less irrelevant - it's either part of the detail behind not liking these aspects, or it's just a secondary concern and not really anything to do with whether or not I like the music, whatever some of the more obsessive fans might think.
The Fish wrote:Enough with this "miserable" bollocks.
The Smiths were for the most part fucking joyous.
I get enough grief at work, mentioning I listen to Leonard Cohen which elicits the usual "music to slit your wrists to" response. Who in their right mind listens to anything that is miserable?
the name is Coan wrote:Some Smiths' songs were miserable. That's the truth. I don't know why some people have a hard time with that.
Oscar wrote:I can agree that Morrissey does have a voice that conveys the feeling of misery, anguish and suffering but come on, let's put him in a line with Scott Walker, Neil Young, Frank Sinatra, Ian Curtis, Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, Leonard Cohen, Michael Stipe .... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc