BCB 100 - The Smiths

[Penk!]

Is anyone else struggling to imagine an angry Owen Hargreaves.

Even a vaguely purposeful one would be nice

[copehead]

The Smiths are one of those bands who are and will be rediscovered anew in subsequent genereations. My younger brothers all discovered the Smiths in their late Teens ( independant of any influence from me ) and are massive Smiths/Morrissey fans; one is a rugger bugger, one is gay and one is at drama school, none of them are goths none of them are overly miserable. This characterising of the Smiths and Smiths fans is just shoddy labelling. Sure they made miserable songs, all bands do, even the Dickies. They are labelled in this way partly due to their contrived, intellectual, dour, northern image, and partly due to a campaign by Steve Wright on R1 to label them miserablists when HKIMN came out, they had skits based around a miserable Morrissey character the lot, and for the dumb fucks who listened to daytime R1 in the 80s that stuck and became the standard, non-fan, reference point to the Smiths.

Any music fan who holds such a simplistic view of the Smiths should be ashamed of themselves.

[yomptepi]

I am not twisting anything.

OK. Show me where I "gave up my theory", where I tried to imply that "the whole thing was a confidence trick designed to draw people in with photographs from the classic films" and where I say that they're a "totally miserabilist band" and I might stop "talking out of my arse."
But no, you won't show me any of that, will you? The red mist will descend and you'll read even this post as me saying "I HATE THE SMITHS" and just lay into me without really paying attention to what I've been saying.
Like I said, I can't be arsed trying to argue over it any more.

Have you actually read this thread?

If you can be bothered, maybe reread it, and refresh your memory on some of the unbelievably stupid things you have said.


Then hang your head in shame.

[Penk!]

But no, you won't show me any of that, will you?

[yomptepi]

But no, you won't show me any of that, will you?

the Arctic Monkeys are a lot more vivacious and energetic. There's plenty of pose but they actually have fun rather than being so determinedly miserable and I think it's reflected in the music, they're shouty and punky and noisy where the Smiths are dreary and grey.

This is just an idea, before the Smiths fans get the torches and pitchforks out again, but was the more upbeat British indie that really galvanised British rock in the late '80s perhaps a reaction to and against the dourness of the Smiths?

If you don't like the songs then of course you're going to find them depressing, the fucking Beach Boys would be depressing if they had Morrissey lowing about his sex life and death and how it was grim up north all the time.

Yeah exactly. I wasn't there in 1984 (well I was, just) so I don't know what it was like at the time. What I do know is that Morrissey's spent 25 years being the most self-important man on the planet so it's impossible to separate that from his songs and with that in mind they do come across as tedious moaning about his own problems and frankly they're just completely disconnected from my own experiences and feelings and I couldn't care less about him, so I just find him a complete bore.

[
We've been through that already though, teenagers are getting into them for the miserabilism and the fact that they are now seen as the archetypal bedwetting student band, whether or not that was what they were in 1985 is irrelevant because it's why they are winning new 17-year-old fans now. For every one who likes them purely on a musical basis there will be half a dozen who like them because of "you go home and you cry and you want to die." My '40-somethings' comment was in response to Oscar's post, I was pointing out that the 'same kids' strictly speaking might have different reasons for getting into new bands that reminded them of the Smiths than people have for being attracted to the Smiths now.

Griff asked
where did you get these facts from, ed?

From knowing a lot of people who've got into them because they're miserable. At uni most people I know didn't care for them, a couple of my housemates did buy Smiths albums and it was like they were their one 'depressing' band. That's the reputation they've earned, whether or not they deserved it.
At college it was more widespread though and it was always the faux-goth types who stood around looking moody and dressing in black who liked the Smiths, it seemed that 16-18 was the prime age to get into the Smiths which can't really have helped the image.[/quote]

[as Owen and I have both pointed out the majority of school and college-age Smiths fans these days are into them because of the bedwetting side of it..

[I do like some aspects of the masterplan though, the running theme with the cover artwork is an attractive and oddly touching idea, I can see that that kind of romanticised imagery could draw people in.

I hope it isn't too difficult for you read all that writing in one go....

[Penk!]

OK. Show me where I "gave up my theory", where I tried to imply that "the whole thing was a confidence trick designed to draw people in with photographs from the classic films" and where I say that they're a "totally miserabilist band" and I might stop "talking out of my arse."
But no, you won't show me any of that, will you? The red mist will descend and you'll read even this post as me saying "I HATE THE SMITHS" and just lay into me without really paying attention to what I've been saying.
Like I said, I can't be arsed trying to argue over it any more.

[yomptepi]

penk...yesterday

[Penk!]

The problem with what you're saying is that many of the fans have admitted, on this very thread in fact, that the Smiths often were miserable and mopey. Whole albums of the stuff, in fact. And this is what they're known best for, and many people at the time appear to have seen them in this way. You've conveniently omitted to acknowledge the times when I've said that it wasn't the case that they were entirely based around moaning.
And you've evidently not read all my posts. Go back a couple of pages and read the debate with Griff from last night again, at the end of which I explicitly state that I do not hold their audience against them.
With this in mind I'm not sure what you mean by my "theory," unless it's the suggestion that bands like the Stone Roses might have been reacting against the Smiths' dourness. And the reason I abandoned this was that no one actually commented on it, whether in agreement or disagreement, so there wasn't really anything else I could do with it. The discussion moved on and I started talking about different things.

As for the rest of what you claim, I have absolutely no idea how you've made the leap from me saying that I found their use of classic film pictures on album covers quite touching and appealing to the idea that I was suggesting this was part of a "masterplan" to sucker people in.

[Tom Violence]

When it comes down to it, I really find it hard to understand how anyone can not like the Smiths. Or at the very least not appreciate the phenomenal talent. So what if it appeared staged? So what if Morrissey's solo career has tainted his reputation a bit? McCartney's done some atrocious stuff but I never hear a bad word against the Beatles. The Smiths were not about Morrissey, they were about the combined songwriting of Marr and him together combining their very different talents to write timeless masterpieces. Morrissey by himself is only half the picture and I really don't consider his work to be really related to anything the Smiths did. Does Squire's solo shite make 'She Bangs the Drums' sound worse?

If you can listen to 'I Know it's Over' and can't appreciate the genius, I reckon you are missing a piece of your brain.

[Penk!]

When it comes down to it, I really find it hard to understand how anyone can not like the Smiths. Or at the very least not appreciate the phenomenal talent. So what if it appeared staged? So what if Morrissey's solo career has tainted his reputation a bit? McCartney's done some atrocious stuff but I never hear a bad word against the Beatles. The Smiths were not about Morrissey, they were about the combined songwriting of Marr and him together combining their very different talents to write timeless masterpieces. Morrissey by himself is only half the picture and I really don't consider his work to be really related to anything the Smiths did. Does Squire's solo shite make 'She Bangs the Drums' sound worse?

If you can listen to 'I Know it's Over' and can't appreciate the genius, I reckon you are missing a piece of your brain.

The Smiths were very much about Morrissey because while you may not have noticed it, he was the one who did all the singing and wrote all the lyrics.
I just don't like most of the songs, I'm not keen on the group's style and I don't happen to rate Morrissey as a lyricist. That's all. Everything else is more or less irrelevant - it's either part of the detail behind not liking these aspects, or it's just a secondary concern and not really anything to do with whether or not I like the music, whatever some of the more obsessive fans might think.

[The Prof]

OK. Show me where I .....say that they're a "totally miserabilist band"

..so determinedly miserable

Close enough innit?

You argue your case quite well Ed, but you miss the point and the joy of the band.
It's your loss but I guess you'll have to live with it.

[Penk!]

OK. Show me where I .....say that they're a "totally miserabilist band"

..so determinedly miserable

Close enough innit?

Not the same as "totally," it is kind of their default setting though.

You argue your case quite well Ed, but you miss the point and the joy of the band.
It's your loss but I guess you'll have to live with it.

Are you sure you don't mean "everything you say is totally stupid and wrong and for that you must die"?

[The Prof]

You argue your case quite well Ed, but you miss the point and the joy of the band.
It's your loss but I guess you'll have to live with it.

Are you sure you don't mean "everything you say is totally stupid and wrong and for that you must die"?

Behave!

You're entitled to your opinion. Silly as it may be.

[Tom Violence]

The Smiths were very much about Morrissey because while you may not have noticed it, he was the one who did all the singing and wrote all the lyrics.
I just don't like most of the songs, I'm not keen on the group's style and I don't happen to rate Morrissey as a lyricist. That's all. Everything else is more or less irrelevant - it's either part of the detail behind not liking these aspects, or it's just a secondary concern and not really anything to do with whether or not I like the music, whatever some of the more obsessive fans might think.

No, they were about Morrissey and Marr. Lose one of them, you're fucked. Look at what each of them has done after the Smiths, nothing even daring to approach the brilliance of their short Smiths back catalogue.

The music itself is not miserable. A lot of it is very upbeat, honest its great. It is, I won't be happy til you agree with me.....

There has always been huge numbers for and against them. May it always remain that way.

[Penk!]

No, they were about Morrissey and Marr.

Well yes. But that means they were about Morrissey.

[Tom Violence]

And Marr though.....

[The Fish]

Enough with this "miserable" bollocks.

The Smiths were for the most part fucking joyous.

I get enough grief at work, mentioning I listen to Leonard Cohen which elicits the usual "music to slit your wrists to" response. Who in their right mind listens to anything that is miserable ?

If your musical choices cannot encompass anything which is dark, sradonic, reflective (insert your own adjective here) then I pity you. To play the"miserable" card is just plain lazy.

[Bungo the Mungo]

Enough with this "miserable" bollocks.

The Smiths were for the most part fucking joyous.

I get enough grief at work, mentioning I listen to Leonard Cohen which elicits the usual "music to slit your wrists to" response. Who in their right mind listens to anything that is miserable?

People do, tho', don't they? It sort of validates their gloom.

Some Smiths' songs were miserable. That's the truth. I don't know why some people have a hard time with that.

[Oscar]

Some Smiths' songs were miserable. That's the truth. I don't know why some people have a hard time with that.

Blinkers! Blinkers! Blinkers! Blinkers! Blinkers! Blinkers!

I can agree that Morrissey does have a voice that conveys the feeling of misery, anguish and suffering but come on, let's put him in a line with Scott Walker, Neil Young, Frank Sinatra, Ian Curtis, Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, Leonard Cohen, Michael Stipe .... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

This statement seems to have been conveniently neglected. How miserable is Scott Walker? More so than Morrissey I would say. But it never seems to be a regular topic of discussion. It's never the first thing you expect to hear when you mention his name. "God, that scott walker blokes a miserable cunt isn't he?". Same goes for the rest of the artists I mentioned (and I can add to that if need be - particularly that whining dylan bloke). When I hear Frank Sinatra sing "Autumn Leaves" it breaks my fucking heart. Here's a man who doesn't fear to wear his emotions on his sleeve. A man's man who can convey heartbreak and misery like no other (well, maybe johnny ray ... and tim buckley .... ). Listen to the albums "Where Are You", "Close To You" or "Point Of No Return". They're all full of anguish and sadness but I've never known anyone walk away from them, shaking their heads and uttering "Miserable fucker!". Same with Neil Young. People will revere "Down By The River", which is a world of misery in itself sang with such a miserable whine, and then criticise Morrissey for being miserable.

So I would say that we celebrate misery in song and in doing so we are able to understand and experience it from the safety of our armchairs. So why does this make some people angry? Particularly when Morrissey is involved? This is why fans get so defensive. Because it seems to be more about Morrissey as a person than Morrissey as a performer.




Anyway, kids to school and all that.


Later maybe!

[northernsky]

Favourite album: despite the fantastically original, single-minded and complete debut, it has to be The Queen is Dead on weight of songs.

Favourite song: "The Headmaster Ritual". A tour de force for their uniquely skewed vocals and guitars.