The Essential Soul thread

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Count Machuki
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Postby Count Machuki » 22 Mar 2006, 20:32

Guy E wrote:
count machuki wrote:still, i connect with soul music on an emotional level every day.

I do too (how can you not, it's wildly emotional music) and with kids growing up listening to Hip Hop the barriers will probably continue to erode. But the point is, it's probably best to just recognize it as a separate entity like Jazz and not compare the apples to the oranges. Inducting Miles Davis into the RnR Hall of Fame bothers me. Sure, he broke down all kinds of barriers and invented new musical language, but it just feels so self-congratulatory on the part of the HoF to induct him... "Oh, we have broad tastes, we're hip."


right on.
had this same discussion in class today.

the marginalisation of rock begins here.
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Postby sloopjohnc » 22 Mar 2006, 20:48

Guy E wrote:
solarskope wrote:like garage punk, it was the 7" single which defined the genre.

whilst most of the essential albums have been listed here, this thread does highlight why very few soul albums make top ten lists. imo.

The reason Soul albums don't make Top 100 lists in rock magazine polls is because virtually all music fans start with a racial bias in their listening habits and try as one might, it never gets completely erased. I'm a big fan of Soul music, but this is true for me too... there's always a trace feeling of being an outsider. Albums by black artists never sold particularly well to white audiences and most of us have discovered the music retroactively, which makes it less "essential" on an emotional level. It's also something of a crapshoot as to what albums people have investigated, so there's not a clear consensus among white listeners as to what the "essential" albums are within the pantheon of Soul artists.

It's probably better to just think of the music separately rather than as a competition... The Blue Nile are better than James Brown! The charts have always been separate, the audiences are generally segregated... there's no need for MOJO et. al. to feign objectivity in these matters. It just makes them look silly.


But you could say the same thing about C&W albums not appearing in Top 100 lists. I don't recall ever seeing Red Headed Stranger in Top 100 lists.

Both are essentially jukebox or single genres. There are some exceptions, like Otis Redding, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, but most of my favorite Soul and C&W albums are greatest hits compilations.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk!

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Postby Guy E » 22 Mar 2006, 21:50

sloopjohnc wrote:
Guy E wrote:
solarskope wrote:like garage punk, it was the 7" single which defined the genre.

whilst most of the essential albums have been listed here, this thread does highlight why very few soul albums make top ten lists. imo.

The reason Soul albums don't make Top 100 lists in rock magazine polls is because virtually all music fans start with a racial bias in their listening habits and try as one might, it never gets completely erased. I'm a big fan of Soul music, but this is true for me too... there's always a trace feeling of being an outsider. Albums by black artists never sold particularly well to white audiences and most of us have discovered the music retroactively, which makes it less "essential" on an emotional level. It's also something of a crapshoot as to what albums people have investigated, so there's not a clear consensus among white listeners as to what the "essential" albums are within the pantheon of Soul artists.

It's probably better to just think of the music separately rather than as a competition... The Blue Nile are better than James Brown! The charts have always been separate, the audiences are generally segregated... there's no need for MOJO et. al. to feign objectivity in these matters. It just makes them look silly.


But you could say the same thing about C&W albums not appearing in Top 100 lists. I don't recall ever seeing Red Headed Stranger in Top 100 lists.

Both are essentially jukebox or single genres. There are some exceptions, like Otis Redding, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, but most of my favorite Soul and C&W albums are greatest hits compilations.

I'm not saying that Country and Soul weren't "singles" mediums, maybe even primarily so, but I think it's a bogus justification for the non-appearance of those genres/artists in polls that pretend to include them. They just shouldn't bother... have a separate sub-poll or something.

There are plenty of people who like Best ofs in any given genre of music, but a lot of times people assume that there's nothing past the hits. Personally, I find comps misleading; a George Jones hits collection does not paint a balanced portrait of his work; the same goes for Tony Joe White and Al Green (all people I discovered via Best ofs). Rock fans tend to dabble in non-rock genres and I'm no different; I stopped exploring Willie Nelson after not liking Red Headed Stranger very much.

In Soul, just look at the HI label. Al Green made three or four CLASSIC albums in the early 70's, but they never make any lists. Why? Too solid a run for a consensus to develop about just one? I suspect it's a style of music that just doesn't strongly appeal to the average rock crit/fan and people just haven't listened to them (not that they'd necessarily like them as well as Pet Sounds or Funhouse or Marquee Moon if they did). And Green wasn't the only person recording for the HI label in Memphis; Otis Clay and Ann Peebles also made great albums during the same period, Syl Johnson made a couple very good ones and Willie Mitchell produced a couple of stone classics for O.V. Wright in 1971 and 1973 that came out on another label. There are standout albums from every regional scene. A music fan could get lost in Chicago Soul and while The Chi-Lites may have never created a classic long-player, Curtis Mayfield certainly did. But Curtis and Superfly never get mentioned in Top Lists.

I mentioned MOJO's 100 TOP ALBUMS OF ALL TIME critics poll from the mid-90's in the Bowie thread... it had some real doozies. As far as black artists went, Stevie Wonder and Sly & The Family Stone logged-in five albums between them, but there wasn't another album by a Black American artist that made the cut. That reflects a demographic and an attitude towards music consumption on the part of the voters, not the quality of the music itself.

The Modernist

Postby The Modernist » 22 Mar 2006, 21:52

cheifwhat wrote:
le moderniste diabolique wrote:
LeBaron wrote:
cheifwhat wrote:there's been no mention of any northern soul artist like dobie gray or jackie edwards


When you re-read the title of the thread, you'll find it says "essential soul"


I think Chiefwhat got it right actually.

Out On The Floor is overrated (and arguably isn't even soul), but the general point Chiefwhat makes is a good one, that often the "essential" things are the one off obscure things that are kept alive through the enthusiasm of scenes like Northern Soul.



you mean 'essential' is a sub genre?

you're shitting me right?




THREAD KILLA!!!!!!!


Eh?

I was agreeing with you, you knob!

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Postby sloopjohnc » 22 Mar 2006, 22:22

Guy E wrote:Syl Johnson made a couple very good ones


Yes he did. Great albums. His daughter Syleena is putting out some pretty decent R&B as well.
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Postby Beno » 22 Mar 2006, 22:31

Seeing he post about Al Green's albums above made me think of this.

Image

Four albums on 2 CDs for £9.99 from Amazon. A lot of people on here will probably have them but I haven't and I'm sorely tempted. I assume at least three of the four albums are excellent?

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Postby The Write Profile » 22 Mar 2006, 22:35

Beno wrote:Seeing he post about Al Green's albums above made me think of this.

Image

Four albums on 2 CDs for £9.99 from Amazon. A lot of people on here will probably have them but I haven't and I'm sorely tempted. I assume at least three of the four albums are excellent?


Indeed they are, and because they're largely chronological (Gets Next To You , Let's Stay Together and I'm Still in Love With You), you can trace some sort of development of the Hi/Willie Mitchell sound. Or at least I think so, the sketches become increasingly richer, more wideranging and anticipate Call Me. That said, all three are equally excellent for different reasons (Gets Next to You is very playful, whereas I'm Still in Love with You has an incredible boduir ambience thing going on), and worth hearing.

The Belle Album is also very good, albeit his most intensely involved, perhaps even autobiographical (?) work- a real mix of the secular and sacred. Incidentally, your post on the Motown 3-Disc "Anthology" inspired me to pick it up, and it's one of the best older things I've bought this year.
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Postby Beno » 22 Mar 2006, 22:49

The Right Summery Profile wrote:Incidentally, your post on the Motown 3-Disc "Anthology" inspired me to pick it up, and it's one of the best older things I've bought this year.

Yes, I've got a lot of mileage out of it as well, quite literally as it's been on regular rotation in the car. It really is all killer and no filler, containing a very high % of the BCB cup soul choices.

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Postby Guy E » 22 Mar 2006, 22:55

Beno wrote:Seeing he post about Al Green's albums above made me think of this.

Image

Four albums on 2 CDs for £9.99 from Amazon. A lot of people on here will probably have them but I haven't and I'm sorely tempted. I assume at least three of the four albums are excellent?


Yes, two or three classics there. Green is Blues is a mixed bag, but worth it just for One Woman.

Call Me is my favorite Al Green album, but it doesn't include any of his biggest hits, although Here I Am (Come and Take Me) is pretty well-known.

marios

Postby marios » 22 Mar 2006, 22:58

If i didn't already own the Al Green albums i'd grab that 4CD set in a heartbeat! Essential stuff!

Let us know if the packaging is any good.

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Postby the masked man » 22 Mar 2006, 23:11

I recently heard "Across 110th Street" by Bobby Womack, and I'm captivated by the track. I've realised I need some of his albums - what a voice!

What's a good starting point and which are the essential albums? ("The Poet", presuambly). I understand this track is the title track from a film soundtrack - is that worth getting, or is it otherwise full of instrumental filler?

Thank you, in advance.

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Postby cheifwhat » 23 Mar 2006, 12:51

le moderniste diabolique wrote:
Eh?

I was agreeing with you, you knob!



sorry mod, i was just surprised that you can whack the word 'essential' in front of something and call that a genre, sounds like a bunch of noddy holders grips to me.


by the way, i too would like to be recomended some good bobby womack (silly surname though) as i too heard that song recently and love it lots and lots.
Mostly dancing sir,...

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Postby Kenji » 23 Mar 2006, 15:17

the masked man wrote:I recently heard "Across 110th Street" by Bobby Womack, and I'm captivated by the track. I've realised I need some of his albums - what a voice!

What's a good starting point and which are the essential albums? ("The Poet", presuambly). I understand this track is the title track from a film soundtrack - is that worth getting, or is it otherwise full of instrumental filler?

Thank you, in advance.


This is essential:

Image

And Stateside released twofers a few years ago - I only have this one so far:

Image

It's great...

("Communication" is on a twofer together with "Understanding")

Posts about Bobby Womack reminded me to get other twofers before it's too late...

Bungo the Mungo

Postby Bungo the Mungo » 23 Mar 2006, 19:42

LeBaron wrote:
cheifwhat wrote:there's been no mention of any northern soul artist like dobie gray or jackie edwards


When you re-read the title of the thread, you'll find it says "essential soul"


:roll:

ignorance is bliss.

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Postby Owen » 23 Mar 2006, 19:51

la giraffe wrote:
Guy E wrote:The charts have always been separate


[at the risk of opening old wounds] in the US, perhaps [/at the risk of opening old wounds]


Yep, i think Guy's points are well made and largely make sense, if there is the total segregation of radio and chart in the US that there seems to be then I can totally understand this stuff not quite touching people in the same way. People here (and the people who write lists) can clearly appreciate and enjoy soul music but it's unlikely to have been the soundtrack of their lives.

I'm not sure the uk is totally different, the stuff that seems to touch us deeply still seems to be stuff that has that cultural connection (although it seems to me that to most british posters here the barriers are harder to overcome with US rock than US soul) but Radio 1 or top of the pops has always been in large part about current black music that was often superior to the british white stuff. It wasn't stuff you had to seek out on a different station.

I think our average age and souls time being past means that we have largely come to this music via comps, but in my case at least it was via Top 10 album chart hits for Sam cooke and Marvin Gaye on the back of Jeans commercials, not via any obscure music fan route

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Postby cheifwhat » 23 Mar 2006, 22:16

solarskope wrote:
LeBaron wrote:
cheifwhat wrote:there's been no mention of any northern soul artist like dobie gray or jackie edwards


When you re-read the title of the thread, you'll find it says "essential soul"


:roll:

ignorance is bliss.


i thought you mean any soul that was needed in your collections

does this mean that any other kind of soul is less necessary? it just doesn't matter as much?
Mostly dancing sir,...

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Postby cheifwhat » 24 Mar 2006, 01:05

la giraffe wrote:maybe some essential soul is optional.



thanks for clearing that up



yours

confused of penge
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Postby sloopjohnc » 24 Mar 2006, 06:50

Just listened to the Soul Fire Records comp. I'd describe it as stoner-garage-funk with some great samples for some DJ to lift.

Lots of instrumental stuff, but anyone who likes early '70s funk will like this.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk!

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Postby cheifwhat » 24 Mar 2006, 12:10

sloopjohnc wrote:Just listened to the Soul Fire Records comp. I'd describe it as stoner-garage-funk with some great samples for some DJ to lift.

Lots of instrumental stuff, but anyone who likes early '70s funk will like this.



*cough*
Mostly dancing sir,...

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Count Machuki
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Postby Count Machuki » 24 Mar 2006, 14:20

cheifwhat wrote:
sloopjohnc wrote:Just listened to the Soul Fire Records comp. I'd describe it as stoner-garage-funk with some great samples for some DJ to lift.

Lots of instrumental stuff, but anyone who likes early '70s funk will like this.



*cough*


*what he said* where'd you get that?
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Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D


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