Paul Simon: Genius or Wanker?

[Sneelock]

but, having seen "one trick pony", I may have to sign in as an alias and vote "Wanker" as well.

[nathan]

I may be wrong here, but I'm not aware of a whole lot of acrimony on the part of the African people over it. So who exactly are you sticking up for?

He did produce that Ladysmith Black Mambazo album Shaka Zulu in the late 80's. I think it's a fabulous record.

[Sea Of Tunes]

He is a fine songwriter, and has written many of my favourite songs. He also has a very good voice, and a great sense of harmony. I cannot imagine a situation where the man who wrote America, Old friends, 50 ways to leave your lover and Gracelands could be called anything derogatory. He is certainly one of the finest craftsmen who ever worked in popular music. Genius is an odd term, and I do not think it appropriate to Simons skills. But he is certainly one of the best at what he does.

I agree. And what about Eno and Byrne? Or Holger Czukay?

[Leg of lamb]

By the way, liking or disliking music for political reasons is utter, utter foolishness.

There is that, yes.

To probe gently into the Count's thinking (!), I'm interested as to why Graceland is worthy of censure but, say, homophobic dancehall stars aren't. I'm assuming that, ideologically, he's opposed to homophobia, as he is to cultural imperialism.

(He asks as he puts on the latest Beenieman Greensleeves comp ...)

[Davey the Fat Boy]

but, having seen "one trick pony", I may have to sign in as an alias and vote "Wanker" as well.

Yeah...but casting Lou Reed as the record company weasel qualifies him for a genius vote, so make two aliases while you are at it.

[Count Machuki]

jeez louise...i'm gnashing teeth? this is BCB, where you can be called a cunt over which marmelade you prefer!

start a paul simon vs. fela kuti thread, without a poll, and we'll see some real blazin' rhetoric. i ain't afraid.

and as to paul's philanthropy...he likes little children. lots of rockers do.
so what?

and...disliking music for political reasons makes perfect sense. why would i listen to something that makes my bile rise, and inflames my sense of moral indignation?

and...terminal boredom? yr thread's carried on for 3 pages and 50+ replies. i'm fascinated by what people have to say in regards to my comments and yours. what's boring?

[Velvis]

and...disliking music for political reasons makes perfect sense. why would i listen to something that makes my bile rise, and inflames my indignation?

You obviously don't really like music at all. Why not just get your rocks off reading a book of Lenin's sayings.

[Buddha B-Rex]

I may be wrong here, but I'm not aware of a whole lot of acrimony on the part of the African people over it. So who exactly are you sticking up for?

Good point. Liberal guilt, I suspect. Suffer from bouts of it on occasion myself.

By the way, liking or disliking music for political reasons is utter, utter foolishness.

I agree with this up to a point. Ever heard of Prussian Blue? If you like songs about Rudolph Hess...they've got 'em. And this new wave of Christian Rock is seductively well crafted; designed to please the ear while inserting the message. There's tons of hateful punk, thrash and hardcore bands out there too.

[Davey the Fat Boy]

jeez louise...i'm gnashing teeth? this is BCB, where you can be called a cunt over which marmelade you prefer!

Don't make excuses. You were gnashing. Everybody saw.


Cunt.

[Sneelock]

i'm fascinated by what people have to say in regards to my comments and yours. what's boring?

I don't think it's boring.
Ted Nugent's "whang dang, sweet poon-tang" has gone down in my estimation due to his politics.

we call 'em like we see 'em.

[Count Machuki]

and...disliking music for political reasons makes perfect sense. why would i listen to something that makes my bile rise, and inflames my indignation?

You obviously don't really like music at all.

yeah, clearly.


so go ahead with your skrewdriver records, then.

[Davey the Fat Boy]

I don't think it's boring.
Ted Nugent's "whang dang, sweet poon-tang" has gone down in my estimation due to his politics.

I hope nobody got hurt in the fall.

[Sea Of Tunes]

While I find Machuki's post always interesting and worthwhile, this particular point of his I profoundly disagree with. Cultural imperialism? No, 'course not. If only one music lover went on from 'Graceland' to the Orchestre Baobab or Toumani Diabate or Ali Farka Toure or Ballake Sissoko as a result, then Simon did a perfect job.
Case closed.

[Sea Of Tunes]

Oh yes, I forgot: Ry Cooder put his particular stamp on Hawaiian, Cuban, African, and other indigenous musics with fantastic rewards. Does anyone really think that the Pahinui Brothers bear a grudge on him after all those years? No.

[Sneelock]

I know he's not the only guy who feels that way. I had a co-worker who, eyeing my Paul Simon tapes, starting laying into me for liking him. it wasn't enough for him to say "I don't like him" he had to tell me how "vile" Simon was and how "vile" I was for liking him.

we got along pretty great but I never played the Paul Simon when he was around.

[Zeke]

Cultural imperialism is the practice of promoting, distinguishing, separating, or artificially injecting the culture or language of one nation into another. It is usually the case that the former is a large, economically or militarily powerful nation and the latter is a smaller, less affluent one. Cultural imperialism can take the form of an active, formal policy or a general attitude. The term is usually used in a pejorative sense, usually in conjunction with a call to reject foreign influence.

While it doesn't fit the definition in a strictly literal sense isn't Rock and Roll in general a form of cultural imperialism? Taking from the blues, gospel and early R&B which all derive from a markedly different (sub) culture than the one they were 'artificially injected into'? Particularly if you look at the adoption of these musics in the UK during the 60s?


Just a thought.

[Count Machuki]

Cultural imperialism is the practice of promoting, distinguishing, separating, or artificially injecting the culture or language of one nation into another. It is usually the case that the former is a large, economically or militarily powerful nation and the latter is a smaller, less affluent one. Cultural imperialism can take the form of an active, formal policy or a general attitude. The term is usually used in a pejorative sense, usually in conjunction with a call to reject foreign influence.

While it doesn't fit the definition in a strictly literal sense isn't Rock and Roll in general a form of cultural imperialism? Taking from the blues, gospel and early R&B which all derive from a markedly different (sub) culture than the one they were 'artificially injected into'? Particularly if you look at the adoption of these musics in the UK during the 60s?


Just a thought.

to address your secondary point, organic trading of influences (elvis, the beatles, yr country example) is NOT cultural imperialism. i object to the unnatural, zombie-like grafting of an indigenous music onto a more dominant musical form.

don't force it, feel it.

regarding sneelock's friend...it reminds me of how i know not to talk pink floyd with some of my closest friends.

[Velvis]

The complaints about Graceland were all about money anyway. Those artists were overjoyed to work with him on Graceland. The complaints started when they realized how successful the album was. Simon took a gamble on doing something really unfamiliar to his audience and won.

Ladysmith Black Mambazo and other SA artist sold a lot more records and got more visibility in the developed world after Graceland than they ever could have hoped.

And the songs on the record are obviously Paul Simon songs, in rhythmic structure, lyrics and melody. Only the settings are different. Simon has been writing songs to rhythmic hooks ever since Cecelia, Me & Julio, etc. This was nothing new.

However, IMO, Graceland is 2/3-4/4 of a great album. The weaker stuff is in the last few tracks.

[Velvis]

Cultural imperialism is the practice of promoting, distinguishing, separating, or artificially injecting the culture or language of one nation into another. It is usually the case that the former is a large, economically or militarily powerful nation and the latter is a smaller, less affluent one. Cultural imperialism can take the form of an active, formal policy or a general attitude. The term is usually used in a pejorative sense, usually in conjunction with a call to reject foreign influence.

While it doesn't fit the definition in a strictly literal sense isn't Rock and Roll in general a form of cultural imperialism? Taking from the blues, gospel and early R&B which all derive from a markedly different (sub) culture than the one they were 'artificially injected into'? Particularly if you look at the adoption of these musics in the UK during the 60s?


Just a thought.

Right. Led Zeppelin and the Stones even took credit for writing Robert Johnson's songs.

[Buddha B-Rex]

Count, what I'm suggesting is that to slag Paul Simon as a 'cultural imperialist' is bordering on hysterics. The album after Graceland was more Brazilian based. Did he rape Brazil, too?

The man has contributed dozens of songs to the canon, millions of his own dollars to help people all over the world, and raised awareness on several critical global issues. Your point would be better made if we were talking about K-Fed, but to equate Paul Simon as the worst kind of cultural fascist is over-reaching at best.

You're still my friend though, you silly cunt.