Paul Simon: Genius or Wanker?
Velvis wrote:Peasant of BCB wrote:count machuki wrote:Peasant of BCB wrote:Cultural imperialism is the practice of promoting, distinguishing, separating, or artificially injecting the culture or language of one nation into another. It is usually the case that the former is a large, economically or militarily powerful nation and the latter is a smaller, less affluent one. Cultural imperialism can take the form of an active, formal policy or a general attitude. The term is usually used in a pejorative sense, usually in conjunction with a call to reject foreign influence.
While it doesn't fit the definition in a strictly literal sense isn't Rock and Roll in general a form of cultural imperialism? Taking from the blues, gospel and early R&B which all derive from a markedly different (sub) culture than the one they were 'artificially injected into'? Particularly if you look at the adoption of these musics in the UK during the 60s?
Just a thought.on page 2, i wrote:to address your secondary point, organic trading of influences (elvis, the beatles, yr country example) is NOT cultural imperialism. i object to the unnatural, zombie-like grafting of an indigenous music onto a more dominant musical form.
don't force it, feel it.
Aha. So why is one an "organic trading of influences" and the other an "unnatural, zombie-like grafting"? Is it merely geographical displacement? Or just the fact that you like one and not the other?
Remember, it's a small world these days with political boundaries meaning less and less. Why should a musician who's been exposed to some indigenous music or other not attempt to incorporate what he's heard into his own music? Calling it artificial seems a bit arbitrary. Maybe it works and maybe it doesn't on a case by case basis but just tossing out the label 'cultural imperialism' without actually taking a look at the result seems unfair.
BTW - I could do without Graceland myself. But that's more because it strikes me as dull than anything else.
That's right! Simon is Jewish, and so is Dylan. We must force them to record only klezmer music, otherwise it's "cultural imperialism".
... and Machuki, the belligerent Machuki, should read my post about Ry Cooder.
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Sea Of Tunes wrote:count machuki wrote:and ry cooder, bland ry cooder, should go back to playing with the stones and capt. beefheart. cuba didn't need his charity.
Pffff.... quit the amphetamines Count. Or is it your youthful hormones?
3 espressos and about 10 camels. why do you ask?
you'll be happy to know i'm meeting with the meshuganah doctor later today, frank. a sincere thank you to you and everybody who posts on the depression thread for your candid posts.
Last edited by Count Machuki on 03 Jul 2007, 18:38, edited 1 time in total.
Let U be the set of all united sets, K be the set of the kids and D be the set of things divided.
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D
count machuki wrote:Sea Of Tunes wrote:count machuki wrote:and ry cooder, bland ry cooder, should go back to playing with the stones and capt. beefheart. cuba didn't need his charity.
Pffff.... quit the amphetamines Count. Or is it your youthful hormones?
3 espressos and about 10 camels. why do you ask?
you'll be happy to know i'm meeting with the meshuganah doctor later today, frank. thank you and everybody who posts on the depression for your candid posts.
Meshuganah doctors usually play 'Graceland' in their waiting rooms to calm down their arriving clients.
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Sea Of Tunes wrote:count machuki wrote:Sea Of Tunes wrote:count machuki wrote:and ry cooder, bland ry cooder, should go back to playing with the stones and capt. beefheart. cuba didn't need his charity.
Pffff.... quit the amphetamines Count. Or is it your youthful hormones?
3 espressos and about 10 camels. why do you ask?
you'll be happy to know i'm meeting with the meshuganah doctor later today, frank. thank you and everybody who posts on the depression for your candid posts.
Meshuganah doctors usually play 'Graceland' in their waiting rooms to calm down their arriving clients.
"yes, who's next, please?"
Let U be the set of all united sets, K be the set of the kids and D be the set of things divided.
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D
count machuki wrote:Sea Of Tunes wrote:count machuki wrote:Sea Of Tunes wrote:count machuki wrote:and ry cooder, bland ry cooder, should go back to playing with the stones and capt. beefheart. cuba didn't need his charity.
Pffff.... quit the amphetamines Count. Or is it your youthful hormones?
3 espressos and about 10 camels. why do you ask?
you'll be happy to know i'm meeting with the meshuganah doctor later today, frank. thank you and everybody who posts on the depression for your candid posts.
Meshuganah doctors usually play 'Graceland' in their waiting rooms to calm down their arriving clients.
"yes, who's next, please?"
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count machuki wrote:disliking music for political reasons makes perfect sense. why would i listen to something that makes my bile rise, and inflames my sense of moral indignation?
I don't know- maybe because it sounds good??
Sorry if I'm talking crazy here.
Do you really check out all the political implications of how something was produced before you listen to it?
I remember an interview with Ry Cooder in which he was laying into Omara Portuando for wanting to sound like Barbara Streisand, one of her favorite singers. Ry's point was she should stick to what makes her unique and special. Frankly I thought he was full of crap. Another argument that musicians should be limited in where they're allowed to take influence from. So is Portuondo a cultural imperialist? What are the implications of her using the music of American Jewish culture?
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toomanyhatz wrote:count machuki wrote:disliking music for political reasons makes perfect sense. why would i listen to something that makes my bile rise, and inflames my sense of moral indignation?
I don't know- maybe because it sounds good??
Sorry if I'm talking crazy here.
Do you really check out all the political implications of how something was produced before you listen to it?
I remember an interview with Ry Cooder in which he was laying into Omara Portuando for wanting to sound like Barbara Streisand, one of her favorite singers. Ry's point was she should stick to what makes her unique and special. Frankly I thought he was full of crap. Another argument that musicians should be limited in where they're allowed to take influence from. So is Portuondo a cultural imperialist? What are the implications of her using the music of American Jewish culture?
Ry Cooder is not full of crap. He is full of great music. Listen to Chavez Ravine at this point.
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Re: Simon, he's had moments of both genius and wankerdom. What's with the fake English accent at Monterrey? And listen to his introduction of Martin Carthy on said's box set- tell me he doesn't sound a wee touch like a smarmy bastard.
That said (and as said before), anyone who's written "America," "Train in the Distance," "Silent Eyes," etc. has worked up quite a lot of good will with me.
That said (and as said before), anyone who's written "America," "Train in the Distance," "Silent Eyes," etc. has worked up quite a lot of good will with me.
Footy wrote:
The Who / Jimi Hendrix Experience Saville Theatre, London Jan '67
. Got Jimi's autograph after the show and went on to see him several times that year
1959 1963 1965 1966 1974 1977 1978 1981 1988 2017* 2018 2020!! 2023?
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Sea Of Tunes wrote:Ry Cooder is not full of crap. He is full of great music. Listen to Chavez Ravine at this point.
Oh, I like his music fine. Some of it I love (Chavez Ravine not among it, I'm afraid). But is it really for him to say who Portuondo should and shouldn't be inspired by?
Footy wrote:
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. Got Jimi's autograph after the show and went on to see him several times that year
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Just read the chapter of 'Whit Bicycles' where he describes Taj Mahal getting on down to the Copper family and the Watersons.
Seems to me that if the music moves you, it moves you. And that cultural exchange works both ways (see Omara above). I am pretty certain that Graceland came from a genuine enthusiasm for the music.
On the other hand I haven't met Paul Simon and he may be a wanker on a business or personal level. But then we're all wankers, really, aren't we?
Seems to me that if the music moves you, it moves you. And that cultural exchange works both ways (see Omara above). I am pretty certain that Graceland came from a genuine enthusiasm for the music.
On the other hand I haven't met Paul Simon and he may be a wanker on a business or personal level. But then we're all wankers, really, aren't we?
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Just read the definition of "cultural imperialism," by the way:
The "injecting" part is pretty clear, it's the "artificially" part that I take issue with.
Ry Cooder discouraging Omara Portuondo's interest in Barbara Streisand- artificial.
Paul Simon and some great musicians from South Africa combining forces because they enjoy each other's music- not artificial. Anyone disagree?
(For what it's worth, I've heard nothing but good things re: Simon's treatment of them from the South African musicians. The only people I've heard complain, in fact, are Los Lobos, who resent not sharing writing credit for "The Myth of Fingerprints." Likely they have a point, and they're not the first to accuse him of such practices. Apparently he does have some wankerdom to him.)
...artificially injecting the culture or language of one nation into another.
The "injecting" part is pretty clear, it's the "artificially" part that I take issue with.
Ry Cooder discouraging Omara Portuondo's interest in Barbara Streisand- artificial.
Paul Simon and some great musicians from South Africa combining forces because they enjoy each other's music- not artificial. Anyone disagree?
(For what it's worth, I've heard nothing but good things re: Simon's treatment of them from the South African musicians. The only people I've heard complain, in fact, are Los Lobos, who resent not sharing writing credit for "The Myth of Fingerprints." Likely they have a point, and they're not the first to accuse him of such practices. Apparently he does have some wankerdom to him.)
Footy wrote:
The Who / Jimi Hendrix Experience Saville Theatre, London Jan '67
. Got Jimi's autograph after the show and went on to see him several times that year
1959 1963 1965 1966 1974 1977 1978 1981 1988 2017* 2018 2020!! 2023?
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I remember an interview with Ry Cooder in which he was laying into Omara Portuando for wanting to sound like Barbara Streisand, one of her favorite singers. Ry's point was she should stick to what makes her unique and special. Frankly I thought he was full of crap. Another argument that musicians should be limited in where they're allowed to take influence from. So is Portuondo a cultural imperialist? What are the implications of her using the music of American Jewish culture?
Indeed it's far more appropriate that she should receive direction from a more respectable, white, male American, such as Ry Cooder.
Ya know, the Minutemen stole funk from the black man, as the Pop Group did before them. In a way that's the same thing. And yet, nobody is going to confuse a Minutemen record with a Rick James one. It's a lift, but it's not a complete and total one.
By the same token, there's nothing morally wrong with Paul Simon using African forms & musicians if it inspires him to do original work.
Whether the listener will think it's good, bad, indifferent, a watered down version of the real thing, better than the real thing, a genius melding of the best parts of human expression from around the world, is another thing.
Jimbo wrote:I guess I am over Graham Nash's politics. Hopelessly naive by the standards I've molded for myself these days.
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...and back to Mr Simon. I reckon he's a very talented chap, but a genius? Not a shit-show.
Great to see the Pop Group and the Minutemen mentioned above!
Great to see the Pop Group and the Minutemen mentioned above!
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Velvis wrote:By the way, liking or disliking music for political reasons is utter, utter foolishness.
I would extend this thought further:
art and politics are very separate realms. The first is basically irrational and amoral. That doesn't mean it's bad; it means that the reasons you like or dislike it are pretty much beyond proof and explanation on any deep level.
The second topic--politics--is all about rational discourse and morality if it's to have any positive effect at all. Politics, that is, public policy for the public good, is about figuring out what the public good is and how to serve it well.
Once you start to delegate that task and that responsibility to whether a song makes you feel good or not, you're just asking for it.
People who try to make art tell them what to think politically don't understand (or don't want to understand) how art is individual, amoral, and irrational and how politics is public, profoundly moral, and with any luck, based on rationality.
Ditto for people who try to make politics tell them what art to like.
To steal a quote (about Sandy Koufax) from Stengel, using politics to tell you what to think about art (or vice versa) is like trying to drink coffee with a fork.
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1. How bad music can inspire you
2. What is folk music?
3. What is theatre?
4. Fender or Gibson?
5. Politics/music
1. How bad music can inspire you
2. What is folk music?
3. What is theatre?
4. Fender or Gibson?
5. Politics/music