Brian Eno

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The Great DeFector

Re: Brian Eno

Postby The Great DeFector » 24 Oct 2005, 19:10

Carlsson wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:Wouldn't say i'm the most up to date person on him but i should be excited right?


Indeed. Ecstatic.

He has made two of the best LPs ever made

.


ok if he should do an questions and answers i shouldn't mention......

Phil T

Postby Phil T » 24 Oct 2005, 19:49

Bryan Ferry? :twisted:

Seriousely, if he does do a Q & A session, ask him if he still uses those Oblique Strategies cards in his work.

The Great DeFector

Postby The Great DeFector » 24 Oct 2005, 19:52

Sutekh wrote:Bryan Ferry? :twisted:

Seriousely, if he does do a Q & A session, ask him if he still uses those Oblique Strategies cards in his work.


brian ferry? explain.


Oblique Strategies cards? did i hear that in one of the matrix films?

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Postby PENK » 24 Oct 2005, 19:57

Dr Markus wrote:
Sleepy wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:was thinking about that 4:38 thing and was trying to figure out what i really thought about it.


You could look at it as a statement regarding pretention in the arts, so much was being made of minimalism in music that he reduced it to it's very composite form, that of silence. It's often said that the space in music is very important, witness something like In a Silent Way or Maggot Brain and hear the space between the notes and how important it is to define the feelings. So Cage was making a statement, be it for or against space and minimalism is I guess down to the individual.



to be honest i think it's more deeper than music. i mean it's just a statement about sound. i mean think of your favourite music artist creating a song that every time you hear it,its different, you have no idea what to expect. That's what cage's "masterpeice" is to me. The thing is, how much do you value sound as an art form. If you do, like my lecturer then 4:38 is very exciting. THe fact that cage created something that makes people feel nervous, confused, and makes people react with a nervous cough or something therefore with different people, different reactions, therefore different 4:38 every time you hear it. It' really is how you value sound as an art form.


That's bollocks to be fair, it's a fucking novelty record. Maybe he was making a valid statement, maybe it does produce different reactions, but it's a joke. Perhaps it's due to the fact that my own reaction to it was to think "you pretentious wanker", but I don't think that as a composition it has any worth. It's the antithesis of sound as an artform, and the only thing I do value about it is the way it reminds me how much I do value sound.
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Phil T

Postby Phil T » 24 Oct 2005, 19:58

Dr Markus wrote:
Sutekh wrote:Bryan Ferry? :twisted:

Seriousely, if he does do a Q & A session, ask him if he still uses those Oblique Strategies cards in his work.


brian ferry? explain.


Oblique Strategies cards? did i hear that in one of the matrix films?


I understood relationships between himself and his former Roxy Music band mate were still somewhat...errm..strained.

And the Oblique Strategies were a set of cards that Eno devised to introduce an element of random into the work process. So, for example, he'd pick a card out of the pack and it would say "erase the days work" And he would. Apparently quite a few of his recordings, both as an artist and a producer have been done under the 'guidance' of these cards, including No Pussyfooting.

If you tried Googling for Oblique Strategies, that'd probably give you more detail than I can.

EDIT: I found a downloadable version here:
http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/reference/oblique.html

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Postby Dave the Jackal » 24 Oct 2005, 20:11

He's a fascinating bloke. So much more than a musician he's into every concievable area possible and his whole approach is to inhabit the connective tissue of our existence. That that lies between art, science, sociology and all the rest of it.

The oblique strategy cards are great, I've infact got them on the computer. They're just little cues for ways that you can approach problems, encourage lateral thinking, especially with regard to creative work.

Are you able to get a tape of the lecture and do a yousend it?

Cage the most important composer of the 20th century? Only in as much as Warhol was the most important artist. For me he and (more so) Stockhausen marked the point at which the process of composition was totally deconstructed. Academically interesting but rather like saying that 'Naked Lunch' or 'the atrocity exhibition' are tightly structured.

Personally I think that with 4'38 he might have been taking the piss, just a hunch though.

The Great DeFector

Postby The Great DeFector » 24 Oct 2005, 20:21

Penk Bloc Bologna wrote:
That's bollocks to be fair, it's a fucking novelty record.


novelty? well cage said it would be his most important work to date, before he even really thought of it. i can take your point about how it looks like he's full of himself, but i mean if you try to just let that go for a minute, how is the best way to hear sound? i mean any everyday human sound? by listening, that's what 4:38 did to a degree. some say listening is a lost art.

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Postby Sleepy » 24 Oct 2005, 20:21

Penk Bloc Bologna wrote:That's bollocks to be fair, it's a fucking novelty record. Maybe he was making a valid statement, maybe it does produce different reactions, but it's a joke. Perhaps it's due to the fact that my own reaction to it was to think "you pretentious wanker", but I don't think that as a composition it has any worth. It's the antithesis of sound as an artform, and the only thing I do value about it is the way it reminds me how much I do value sound.


Bollocks, to be fair? How's that fair? ;)

I do tend to think it's all steeped in pretension, it's the state of arts criticism in general though. I guess one could also say that by making you have that reaction he's in some way succeeded. Me I do tend to side with the joke angle and everything that has been ascribed to it is by critics and people trying to find a message where one doesn't necessarily exist.
You'd need an electric guitar, a dry ice machine and some atmospheric lighting.

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Postby Sleepy » 24 Oct 2005, 20:26

Dr Markus wrote:novelty? well cage said it would be his most important work to date, before he even really thought of it. i can take your point about how it looks like he's full of himself, but i mean if you try to just let that go for a minute, how is the best way to hear sound? i mean any everyday human sound? by listening, that's what 4:38 did to a degree. some say listening is a lost art.


I guess it's a very western classical way of looking at music as well, it's why there hasn't been a great symphony composed in quite a few years. There is just too much theory and not enough form. I went to see the proms this year and heard a new composer and frankly it sounded like an exercise in how to create a piece of music rather than just making something beautiful. Interesting but it's canvas wankery as far as I'm concerned.
You'd need an electric guitar, a dry ice machine and some atmospheric lighting.

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Postby PENK » 24 Oct 2005, 20:27

Dr Markus wrote:how is the best way to hear sound? i mean any everyday human sound? by listening.


Well yeah. And in 4:38, what, exactly, is there to listen to that I couldn't listen to while standing outside having a smoke? In fact, that would be a more interesting experience - the sounds of everyday life are more likely to provoke interesting thoughts than the sound of nothing whatsoever.

Sleepy wrote:I guess one could also say that by making you have that reaction he's in some way succeeded.


True, but in that sense it's driving me away from listening to Cage any further - it makes me think him pretentious and self-important, and reminds me of how much I love the work of other artists.
Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.

The Great DeFector

Postby The Great DeFector » 24 Oct 2005, 20:28

AsBo wrote:
Cage the most important composer of the 20th century? Only in as much as Warhol was the most important artist. For me he and (more so) Stockhausen marked the point at which the process of composition was totally deconstructed. Academically interesting but rather like saying that 'Naked Lunch' or 'the atrocity exhibition' are tightly structured.

Personally I think that with 4'38 he might have been taking the piss, just a hunch though.



not composer, artist!!! that takes in all the arts.

The Great DeFector

Postby The Great DeFector » 24 Oct 2005, 20:34

Penk Bloc Bologna wrote:Well yeah. And in 4:38, what, exactly, is there to listen to that I couldn't listen to while standing outside having a smoke? In fact, that would be a more interesting experience - the sounds of everyday life are more likely to provoke interesting thoughts than the sound of nothing whatsoever.



well where is everyday? i mean you can't say that the sounds inside an concert hall are not everyday sounds or better everyday sounds than out on the street. everyday is everywhere and all the time 24/7. he couldn't really make his point in the street and command everyone to shut up and listen.

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Re: Brian Eno

Postby C » 24 Oct 2005, 20:37

Dr Markus wrote:
Carlsson wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:Wouldn't say i'm the most up to date person on him but i should be excited right?


Indeed. Ecstatic.

He has made two of the best LPs ever made

.


ok if he should do an questions and answers i shouldn't mention......


Neroli and Thursday Afternoon - any chance of a return to something in this minimilist genre?

When will he make another (fine) LP with Harold Budd?

Keep your gob shut! More instrumental stuff please

As he considered working with David Sylvian, Ryuichi Sakamoto or John Foxx?

.

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Postby PENK » 24 Oct 2005, 20:47

Dr Markus wrote:
Penk Bloc Bologna wrote:Well yeah. And in 4:38, what, exactly, is there to listen to that I couldn't listen to while standing outside having a smoke? In fact, that would be a more interesting experience - the sounds of everyday life are more likely to provoke interesting thoughts than the sound of nothing whatsoever.



well where is everyday? i mean you can't say that the sounds inside an concert hall are not everyday sounds or better everyday sounds than out on the street. everyday is everywhere and all the time 24/7. he couldn't really make his point in the street and command everyone to shut up and listen.


Which kind of negates his point. If you have to listen to this in the comparatively stifling atmosphere of a concert hall rather than just listening in your head or on a stereo at home, in the street or while travelling, what does that say about it?
Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.

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Postby The Great DeFector » 24 Oct 2005, 20:50

Penk Bloc Bologna wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:
Penk Bloc Bologna wrote:Well yeah. And in 4:38, what, exactly, is there to listen to that I couldn't listen to while standing outside having a smoke? In fact, that would be a more interesting experience - the sounds of everyday life are more likely to provoke interesting thoughts than the sound of nothing whatsoever.



well where is everyday? i mean you can't say that the sounds inside an concert hall are not everyday sounds or better everyday sounds than out on the street. everyday is everywhere and all the time 24/7. he couldn't really make his point in the street and command everyone to shut up and listen.


Which kind of negates his point. If you have to listen to this in the comparatively stifling atmosphere of a concert hall rather than just listening in your head or on a stereo at home, in the street or while travelling, what does that say about it?



it says he has the balls to make people listen to everyday sounds while most people wouldn't have the balls or the cop on to carry about a recoder all day recording everyday sounds, then going home and listening to them. Tell who did it before him?
Last edited by The Great DeFector on 24 Oct 2005, 20:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sleepy » 24 Oct 2005, 20:51

Penk Bloc Bologna wrote:True, but in that sense it's driving me away from listening to Cage any further - it makes me think him pretentious and self-important, and reminds me of how much I love the work of other artists.


Yeah but for many people that work of pretention would have the opposite effect, on an intellectual level it would interest and then they would follow up the rest. As an experiment it has its plus points, however from a musical point of view I think it's a bit vacuous (badoomtish).
You'd need an electric guitar, a dry ice machine and some atmospheric lighting.

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Postby The Great DeFector » 24 Oct 2005, 20:52

Penk Bloc Bologna wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:
Penk Bloc Bologna wrote:Well yeah. And in 4:38, what, exactly, is there to listen to that I couldn't listen to while standing outside having a smoke? In fact, that would be a more interesting experience - the sounds of everyday life are more likely to provoke interesting thoughts than the sound of nothing whatsoever.



well where is everyday? i mean you can't say that the sounds inside an concert hall are not everyday sounds or better everyday sounds than out on the street. everyday is everywhere and all the time 24/7. he couldn't really make his point in the street and command everyone to shut up and listen.


Which kind of negates his point. If you have to listen to this in the comparatively stifling atmosphere of a concert hall rather than just listening in your head or on a stereo at home, in the street or while travelling, what does that say about it?



can you make an suggestion on how to make people shut up and listen without letting them know what they're doing before they cop on?

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Postby PENK » 24 Oct 2005, 20:54

Dr Markus wrote:
Penk Bloc Bologna wrote:
Dr Markus wrote:
Penk Bloc Bologna wrote:Well yeah. And in 4:38, what, exactly, is there to listen to that I couldn't listen to while standing outside having a smoke? In fact, that would be a more interesting experience - the sounds of everyday life are more likely to provoke interesting thoughts than the sound of nothing whatsoever.



well where is everyday? i mean you can't say that the sounds inside an concert hall are not everyday sounds or better everyday sounds than out on the street. everyday is everywhere and all the time 24/7. he couldn't really make his point in the street and command everyone to shut up and listen.


Which kind of negates his point. If you have to listen to this in the comparatively stifling atmosphere of a concert hall rather than just listening in your head or on a stereo at home, in the street or while travelling, what does that say about it?



it says he has the balls to make people listen to everyday sounds while most people wouldn't have the balls or the cop on to carry about a recoder all day recording everyday sounds, then going home and listening to them. Tell who don't it before him?


Whoever invented the 'stop' button.
Say what you want, I just don't think a lengthy period of silence qualifies as art in any way. The idea of it as a joke is the only one that has any resonance for me.
Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.

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Postby PENK » 24 Oct 2005, 20:54

Dr Markus wrote:can you make an suggestion on how to make people shut up and listen without letting them know what they're doing before they cop on?


Play them some music.
Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.

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Postby Carl's Son » 24 Oct 2005, 20:58

Dr Markus wrote:
Chris Chopping wrote:I think his prepared piano is more interesting though.


is that the piano with the nuts and bolts and things in the strings to make it sound out of tune?

Yeah, I actually ordered a CD of sonatas and interludes by Cage for prepared piano and it arrived today.

This might sound a bit stupid but I always liked the way the Beatles incorporated Avant Garde techniques into pop songs, like the random ochestra bits in A Day In The Life or the tape loops in Tommorrow Never Knows. I've been thinking how they should've done something with prepared piano as well. Imagine In My Life with the solo on prepared piano.

Having seen a documentary on him I'm really warming to John Cage and his ideas. He always seemed a bit pretentious from things I had read but in the doc his humour really came across. He reminded me of Brian Wilson, this happy, childish genius.

People talk about Cage's work either as art or a joke. Can't it be art of some value and still have humour to it? I don't think it helped when his estate sued Mike Batt. It made it look like a very precious wankerish piece of art rather than a humourous and thought provoking idea.
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