Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

[Phil T]

James Jamerson, christ yes, or Duck Dunn? No, JJ is the key.

Oh yes. That rusty, septic sound of his on the early stuff was bloody great!

[Diamond Dog]

Do Roxy Music deserve a mention?

I guess if members of the punk movement looked at them and thought, "f*ck that" lets make some proper music......
Seriously, why?

The nature of introducing avant-wizzadary into pop music (Brian Eno, again should be on the list, or at least in the "they also served" section), and in their own way I guess they kind of paved the way for the sampling/post modern tendencies in pop: the high concept, throw-things-in-a-pan approach. That's the pop world today. Or parts of it anyway. But I don't think it's enough. Important, perhaps, but again, a near-miss.

But as I said, we should include (or at least consider) Brian Eno if we're even going to think about Roxy, solely because of the amount of music he was involved in and developed--or at least anticipated (c.f. Ambient)

Weren't they one of the first 'fusion' bands - I've never been able to define their 'pigeonhole' (the early years, at least) and I just wonder if they opened up the field that way?

The points about Eno are valid - but was he really the originator of 'ambient'?

[Diamond Dog]

Interesting way to look at it Goldie. Any other opinions on Roxy Music?

[BARON CORNY DOG]

[
Yes, is the answer. James Jamerson, christ yes, or Duck Dunn? No, JJ is the key. Strewth! And if McCartney wasn't in as part of the Beatles, he should be in for his contribution to what bass playing could be.

I know this isn't the path that DD wants to take, but what's so special about Duck Dunn?

[Jeff K]

I'm trying to think of a female artist to add but I'm coming up empty handed. I see a few mentions of Bessie Smith and Billie Holiday but it doesn't seem right to have an all male list, does it? There has to be some woman worthy of inclusion. Aretha Franklin? Loretta Lynn?

[BARON CORNY DOG]

[
Yes, is the answer. James Jamerson, christ yes, or Duck Dunn? No, JJ is the key. Strewth! And if McCartney wasn't in as part of the Beatles, he should be in for his contribution to what bass playing could be.

I know this isn't the path that DD wants to take, but what's so special about Duck Dunn?

He never got fired.

Well, for real, I mean, maybe there's a less is more argument to be made. He stayed out of everyone else's way I guess. And he seems like a likeable goober type.

[T. Berry Shuffle]

[
Yes, is the answer. James Jamerson, christ yes, or Duck Dunn? No, JJ is the key. Strewth! And if McCartney wasn't in as part of the Beatles, he should be in for his contribution to what bass playing could be.

I know this isn't the path that DD wants to take, but what's so special about Duck Dunn?

That's a question that Duck actually voices himself in Sweet Soul Music.

[BARON CORNY DOG]

[
Yes, is the answer. James Jamerson, christ yes, or Duck Dunn? No, JJ is the key. Strewth! And if McCartney wasn't in as part of the Beatles, he should be in for his contribution to what bass playing could be.

I know this isn't the path that DD wants to take, but what's so special about Duck Dunn?

That's a question that Duck actually voices himself in Sweet Soul Music.

Another book I should re-read! Shit, I should probably buy a new copy with hopes that the discography has been updated. A ton of stuff has come into print. Actually, I meant to return to this thread and repent. While running some afternoon errands, Eddie Floyd's "Knock On Wood" came on the radio and, well, I felt ashamed.

[Diamond Dog]

Did either Duck Dunn or James Jefferson change music irrevocably?

[James R]

The points about Eno are valid - but was he really the originator of 'ambient'?

I think it was Erik Satie who came up with a concept called "musique d'ameublement" (sic—I'm sure one of our French residents will correct me there) or "furniture music", or background music that is not meant to be consciously listened to. I think Eno's conception of ambient music is in a similar vein, music you can listen to if you choose or ignore if you choose to do that instead.

[The Write Profile]

The points about Eno are valid - but was he really the originator of 'ambient'?

I think it was Erik Satie who came up with a concept called "musique d'ameublement" (sic—I'm sure one of our French residents will correct me there) or "furniture music", or background music that is not meant to be consciously listened to. I think Eno's conception of ambient music is in a similar vein, music you can listen to if you choose or ignore if you choose to do that instead.

But in saying that I think the key difference is that Brian Eno had a definitively "pop" sensibility. No matter what he argues, he clearly intended people to listen to his music (as opposed to soaking it in). He basically took the "ambient" concept and stripped it of some of its esoterica. Or at least that's how I feel about it, although I tend to prefer his work with Bowie, Roxy, and his early solo stuff.

If he's going to be on the list, it's because he clearly existed at a divide between the old and new worlds of pop music. He might not have been the first (I certainly can't claim to be anything remotely in the same ballpark as an "expert", perhaps Bleep could help us?), but he was certainly the most noticeable, perhaps.

As I said, I don't know enough about him so this is all theory.

[JQW]

The true musical pioneers can be split to two strains - those that made the rules, and those that broke them. Which strain would you consider to be more important?

[Diamond Dog]

The true musical pioneers can be split to two strains - those that made the rules, and those that broke them. Which strain would you consider to be more important?

Good point - but surely those that made them were the ones that broke the previous rules?

[bhoywonder]

Did either Duck Dunn or James Jefferson change music irrevocably?

Well, it could be that I'm just a fan, but I would say they were pioneers of the electric bass, and i electric bass isn't important in pop music then I don't know what is.

When were the first electric basses produced? Mid-50s? Without this instrument, motown wouldn't have really existed, nor the southern r'n'b labels, nor 60s pop, rock and everything that came after it. How much of a difference the electric bass made compared to the stand-up variety is up for debate then, but if electric bass revolutionised pop, which I think it did in many ways, then these guys made it so. And mostly by playing very simple, repetitive grooves, whicwas less common on stand up, where jazz, country and walking styles were the way.

Just a thought, likes.

[Bungo the Mungo]

When were the first electric basses produced? Mid-50s? Without this instrument, motown wouldn't have really existed, nor the southern r'n'b labels, nor 60s pop, rock and everything that came after it. How much of a difference the electric bass made compared to the stand-up variety is up for debate then, but if electric bass revolutionised pop, which I think it did in many ways, then these guys made it so. And mostly by playing very simple, repetitive grooves, whicwas less common on stand up, where jazz, country and walking styles were the way.

Just a thought, likes.

great post, bhoy! the electric bass is certainly one of the unsung components of popular music as we know it, and in jamerson and dunn you have two of the best exponents. for me, the key to good bass playing is simplicity and groove, but with an inventive twist which gives it the 'wow' factor.

[Diamond Dog]

I'd never really tought about he electric bass - one just takes it as it's always been there Of course, it's worthy of consideration.

[KeithPratt]

Good thread - it's been enjoyable reading it, but my own thoughts are that we should avoid categorising and listing purely because it creates a canon, and when that happens, then it's inevitable that people are left out.

There are many artists on here that within the parameters of popular music within an Anglo-W.European field in the last 50 years could be defined as important, but outside of that, are they really? We're now hearing and talking about music on a global scale, far beyond the initial heady rush of the sixties.

In the long run I bet Stockhausen will be seen as far more important than Bob Dylan and The Beatles for example. Debussy, Satie and Varese's work I reckon has been overlooked.

[Diamond Dog]

Bleep - I really don't know enough about Stockhausen to comment. I know you consider that particular body of wotk essential - tell us why.

[Spock!]

Bump!

[Penk!]

Bump!

To be honest I think you're alone in considering them worthy of inclusion. After all, they only made the one album and it was hardly groundbreaking, in fact it was somewhat derivative.