Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Backslapping time. Well done us. We are fantastic.
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Shagger Dave
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Postby Shagger Dave » 22 Feb 2005, 01:44

Nancy (Class Of 1997) wrote:
Shagger Dave wrote:
Nancy (Class Of 1997) wrote:
Shagger Dave wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Anyone from the rap/hip hop scene deserving of mention? Dr Dre? Grandmaster Flash?


Grandmaster Flash and Kool Herc for being basically the first rap acts. I think Public Enemy deserves mention for injecting politics into the mix, and dare I say, the Beastie Boys. Coming of age in white suburbia in the 1980s rap didn't break into the overall conscousness of kids until License To Ill came out. Ganted that record isn't the Beasties best work but it succeeded (I think) in getting white kids deeper into the music.


And what about Sugarhill Gang?
Their "Rappers Delight" (1979) was the first ever Rap single to hit the charts.


I've always thought of the Sugarhill Gang as a one off, producers vison type of thing. I also think that although they were timed at about the same time as Kool Herc and Grandmaster Flash the fact that their claim to fame was basically them rapping over a Chic record they didn't have the amount of ingenuity or creativity as Flash or Herc. Rapper's Delight does deserve a mention, though Nancy as a record that made it all possible, but I'm not too sure about the Sugarhill Gang as a unit.

(PS I saw the Sugarhill Gang with Run DMC and the Jungle Brothers and they sucked, really really hard.)


Correct enough, Dave!

My words are up with yours once again.

Hey, this ain't no compitition, just some friendly music chat! :D
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Postby James R » 22 Feb 2005, 04:10

JQW wrote:
James R wrote:Thomas Alva Edison. Without whom, no sound recording, and consequently the entire history of music in the 20th century—not just popular music, but all music—would be different.


Emil Berliner's invention of the flat record made it possible to mass-produce recordings for the first time. Edison's cylinders had to be recorded live.


A fair point, and admittedly Edison lost interest in his own invention fairly quickly and didn't do much more with it until Bell & Tainter got their graphophone patents in 1886. All the same, though, to what extent did Edison et al inspire Berliner to do his work on disc recording? I don't know to what extent Berliner was actually independent of these other people.

Edison also ripped people off. Look into the disappearance of Le Prince, who shot the first film on a single lens camera about 1/2 a mile from where I'm sitting.


Already there :D In fact, it's about thirteen or fourteen years since I first heard about Le Prince. But did Edison actually rip Le Prince off as such? The latter did intend to go to New York but, as you no doubt know, never made it there. I was always under the impression that Le Prince went basically unremarked for decades and that William Friese Greene was more often hailed as the British pioneer of moving pictures.
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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Toby » 22 Feb 2005, 09:56

Carlsson wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Kraftwerk - The only really new thing (post 'rock) has been synthesised, beat driven music. All hip hop owes a great deal to Kraftwerk - without their dedication to making 'non rock' music, it couldn't have happened.


Not quite. Kraftwerk owed it all to Tangerine Dream

.


No, I don't think this is particularly true. There's no doubt that they were an influence, but I think The Stooges were a bigger influence on Kraftwerk from an aesthetical point of view than TD ever were.

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Postby Diamond Dog » 22 Feb 2005, 15:55

Any other mentions - the 'possibles' run to about 40 at the moment!!

No one has questionned any of my original five - amazing!
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Postby Leg of lamb » 22 Feb 2005, 16:19

Diamond Dog wrote:Any other mentions - the 'possibles' run to about 40 at the moment!!

No one has questionned any of my original five - amazing!


I think this is the thing with these threads - we all agree on the first five but after that a consensus is just impossible. It's still fun though.

For what it's worth, in addition to the Elvises and Beatles, etc, I'd just have (from a pop perspective) The Stooges or someone else to represent punk and a hip-hop pioneer. Everything else in the last 25-30 years has just been explorations on already established themes, sometimes taken to original and exciting conclusions but never really earth-shattering enough to galvanise a fundamentally different musical direction or outlook.
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Postby Jumper k » 22 Feb 2005, 16:31

Iam wrote:
Schoolly D

Right up there mate. No Schoolly, no Gangsta, no Wu. Brought the whole nihilistic. don't give a fuck attuitude to the game. Could be argued that he was the first overtly political rapper in the modern sense.

I'm gonna throw Black Flag into the mix. Hardcore, all So Cal punk and what passes today as 'punk' are heavily influenced by this band.

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Postby The Great DeFector » 22 Feb 2005, 16:47

bob mould!

no no i'm serious, ok you can throw in the other two as well and say husker du but any half decent loud and would not be here if it wasn't for them.

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Postby Leg of lamb » 22 Feb 2005, 18:05

Dr Markus wrote:bob mould!

no no i'm serious, ok you can throw in the other two as well and say husker du but any half decent loud and would not be here if it wasn't for them.


You're shitting me, yes? I love Husker Du as much as the next man but to say they fundamentally changed the direction of music history is just delirious ...
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Postby NancyL21st » 22 Feb 2005, 18:09

Shagger Dave wrote:
Nancy (Class Of 1997) wrote:
Shagger Dave wrote:
Nancy (Class Of 1997) wrote:
Shagger Dave wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Anyone from the rap/hip hop scene deserving of mention? Dr Dre? Grandmaster Flash?


Grandmaster Flash and Kool Herc for being basically the first rap acts. I think Public Enemy deserves mention for injecting politics into the mix, and dare I say, the Beastie Boys. Coming of age in white suburbia in the 1980s rap didn't break into the overall conscousness of kids until License To Ill came out. Ganted that record isn't the Beasties best work but it succeeded (I think) in getting white kids deeper into the music.


And what about Sugarhill Gang?
Their "Rappers Delight" (1979) was the first ever Rap single to hit the charts.


I've always thought of the Sugarhill Gang as a one off, producers vison type of thing. I also think that although they were timed at about the same time as Kool Herc and Grandmaster Flash the fact that their claim to fame was basically them rapping over a Chic record they didn't have the amount of ingenuity or creativity as Flash or Herc. Rapper's Delight does deserve a mention, though Nancy as a record that made it all possible, but I'm not too sure about the Sugarhill Gang as a unit.

(PS I saw the Sugarhill Gang with Run DMC and the Jungle Brothers and they sucked, really really hard.)


Correct enough, Dave!

My words are up with yours once again.

Hey, this ain't no compitition, just some friendly music chat! :D


:D ...I know, Dave. But you learn something new every day, don't you? :wink:
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Postby Diamond Dog » 23 Feb 2005, 09:16

Ok, having gone through the list, I'll give you these:

Elvis Presley
The Beatles
Bob Dylan
Jini Hendrix
Kraftwerk
James Brown
Louis Armstrong
Grandmaster Flash
The Stooges
Les Paul
Buddy Holly/Chuck Berry (?)
Miles Davis


The rest, for me, haven't 'changed the landscape'. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Velvet Underground yet - should they be in there? Which of Holly and Berry should it be - it can't be both, the singer/songwriter/performer tag (that changed the landscape) can only really apply to one, can't it?

The close calls:

Robert Johnson
Frank Sinatra
Duke Ellington
Phil Spector
Public Enemy
Dizzy Gillespie
Hank Williams

Convince me why they should join the elite group above and we'll reconsider.

Anyone else needs to be considered?
Last edited by Diamond Dog on 23 Feb 2005, 09:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nikki Gradual » 23 Feb 2005, 09:20

Diamond Dog wrote:
Anyone else needs to be considered?


Still these...
Jelly Roll Morton
Woody Guthrie
Mussorgsky
Robert Johnson
Ewan MacColl/Pete Seeger
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Postby The Modernist » 23 Feb 2005, 09:23

Lloyd Coxsone?
Pioneered the whole idea of versions and dub etc. Though quite a few were doing it at the time so it's difficult to single out one person.

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Postby Toby » 23 Feb 2005, 09:23

Diamond Dog wrote:Ok, having gone through the list, I'll give you these:

Elvis Presley
The Beatles
Bob Dylan
Jini Hendrix
James Brown
Louis Armstrong
Grandmaster Flash
The Stooges
Les Paul
Buddy Holly/Chuck Berry (?)
Miles Davis


The rest, for me, haven't 'changed the landscape'. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Velvet Underground yet - should they be in there? Which of Holly and Berry should it be - it can't be both, the singer/songwriter/performer tag (that changed the landscape) can only really apply to one, can't it?

The close calls:

Robert Johnson
Frank Sinatra
Duke Ellington
Phil Spector
Public Enemy
Dizzy Gillespie
Hank Williams

Convince me why they should join the elite group above and we'll reconsider.

Anyone else needs to be considered?


Kraftwerk have to be in there old chap, as do the Velvet Underground.

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Postby -- » 23 Feb 2005, 09:37

Diamond Dog wrote:Public Enemy


Are these because it's what most people have heard?

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Postby Diamond Dog » 23 Feb 2005, 09:37

Idontlikeyourmusic wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Ok, having gone through the list, I'll give you these:

Elvis Presley
The Beatles
Bob Dylan
Jini Hendrix
Kraftwerk
James Brown
Louis Armstrong
Grandmaster Flash
The Stooges
Les Paul
Buddy Holly/Chuck Berry (?)
Miles Davis


The rest, for me, haven't 'changed the landscape'. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Velvet Underground yet - should they be in there? Which of Holly and Berry should it be - it can't be both, the singer/songwriter/performer tag (that changed the landscape) can only really apply to one, can't it?

The close calls:

Robert Johnson
Frank Sinatra
Duke Ellington
Phil Spector
Public Enemy
Dizzy Gillespie
Hank Williams

Convince me why they should join the elite group above and we'll reconsider.

Anyone else needs to be considered?


Kraftwerk have to be in there old chap, as do the Velvet Underground.


An oversight Toby - they were in my original five!!!

No mention on the threads of VU - why/why not?

Nikki - give us reasons why the five you named should be included, and we'll consider/debate. I've included Johnson as a maybe, already.
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Postby Diamond Dog » 23 Feb 2005, 09:40

Iam wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Public Enemy


Are these because it's what most people have heard?


Quite possibly - what pioneers were there before them Iam and fundamentally changed the landscape? The ones you mentined earlier? why/why not?
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Postby andymacandy » 23 Feb 2005, 09:43

Souphounds mention of MTV should be included.I assume you are not just talking about those influences that we look upon as good changes.MTV did change the way music was presented.
And shouldnt there be some kind of mention for Berry Gordy?Surely Motown had a significant impact on pop music.
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Postby -- » 23 Feb 2005, 09:48

Diamond Dog wrote:
Iam wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Public Enemy


Are these because it's what most people have heard?


Quite possibly - what pioneers were there before them Iam and fundamentally changed the landscape? The ones you mentined earlier? why/why not?


Well, Run DMC are the most obvious as a group, not PE. Between them and (later) BDP, they pioneered the hardcore rap sound which most of the Hip Hop today is derived from - including PE to a large extent. Theirs were the first stripped down beats and street raps, not PE's.

Also, there's little all that original about Carlton D's vocal style - Schoolly D, as Jumper has said, was the first to rock a mic like that and he is the one who set the stage for much of the vocal style that would come later.

As for the others, they all contributed to the development of the genre in ways that PE simply have not. You'll better off with Gill Scott Heron than Terminator X in your list.

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Postby Diamond Dog » 23 Feb 2005, 09:50

andymacandy wrote:Souphounds mention of MTV should be included.I assume you are not just talking about those influences that we look upon as good changes.MTV did change the way music was presented.
And shouldnt there be some kind of mention for Berry Gordy?Surely Motown had a significant impact on pop music.


Wasn't the factory style production (not musical but output) just an extension of the Tin Pan Alley output? I realise one was writing based, the other performance based, but they're much of the same thing, maybe? Berry Gordy is worthy of debate though, I'd agree.

MTV did change music - but videos were around before MTV - they just harnessed it relentlessly. But it's another point worth debating.

I'm also considering Zep's position again, by the way......
Mason Cooley wrote:Worried about being a dull fellow? You might develop your talent for being irritating.

In the future, in case you're wondering, "Crime, boy I don't know" is where I decided to kick your ass.

Jumper k

Postby Jumper k » 23 Feb 2005, 09:54

What have you got against punk rock? Did it not change the landscape seismically?. Its omission devalues your whole premise.