Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

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Postby The Write Profile » 14 Oct 2005, 11:21

bhoywonder wrote:
Sea of Modernist! (SoM) wrote:Here's one for you to ponder .
The Stones invented punk ..Stones-> garage punk -> The Stooges -> punk. The line starts with them I'd say. They also invented stadium rock, not an achievement i'd thank them for, but there you have it.
When you look at any band within a clear rock (as opposed to pop) framework, it's The Stones they're referencing.


Did the Stones invent garage punk?


I don't think they invented it, but if the Nuggets boxset is anything to go by, they were certainly (along with the Yardbirds, Bo Diddley and the Beatles) certainly the most pervasive influence. Whether the Stones themself were actually very original is another matter entirely. As a messenger for the genre, I certainly think they helped send it on its way.
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Postby Diamond Dog » 14 Oct 2005, 21:34

I hope to clear this up and print a 'definitive' list over the weekend.
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Postby The Modernist » 14 Oct 2005, 21:37

bhoywonder wrote:
Sea of Modernist! (SoM) wrote:Here's one for you to ponder .
The Stones invented punk ..Stones-> garage punk -> The Stooges -> punk. The line starts with them I'd say. They also invented stadium rock, not an achievement i'd thank them for, but there you have it.
When you look at any band within a clear rock (as opposed to pop) framework, it's The Stones they're referencing.


Did the Stones invent garage punk?



I think they were the main instigators of it, yes.

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Postby Diamond Dog » 05 May 2006, 16:47

T. Berry Shuffle wrote:Very interesting suggestions thus far and a lively debate also.

Pete, I'd like to put forth a suggestion that we split the field. Let's have one just for musicians and one for "also served". That way we can analyze each segment and not feel pressed to leave out anyone whose contribution demands attention.

There’s been so much spirited debate thus far that I don’t know where to start. I don’t know too much about punk’s roots. So I asked the wife, who is a huge punk aficionado who would qualify as the source for that movement. Her opinion is The Stooges. She says “Please Kill Me”, one of the definitive texts on punk, really pushes them as the impetus for the whole punk thing. And she even argues that it could be the MC5.

On country roots, my opinion is that if the colossus of country stood with his arms outstretched, balancing in each hand the two major forces in country music that had a direct influence on all roots traditions and consequentially rock/pop music he would be holding Jimmie Rodgers and The Carter Family.

Jimmie Rodgers’ style encompassed the depth and breath of musical traditions of the time. He incorporated everything from the blues of his native state of Mississippi to tin-pan alley pop, the essence of the rural white country tradition, elements of jazz, gospel influences, and melded them all to become the first real songster in the country tradition and the single most influential country artist of that time. His blue yodel was the source of the high lonesome singing style adopted by Hank Williams and others. King Oliver even adopted that yodel for a reworking of the New Orleans standard “St James Infirmary” in 1929. He was the first artist inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame. His plague read “The man who started it all” You can’t start walkin’ if your foot ain’t in Jimmie’s damn shoes.

It would hard to imagine how different music would be without the impact of The Carter Family. They were discovered in Bristol, Tennessee in1927 by Ralph Speer of RCA on the same field recording trip that brought Jimmie Rodgers from Meridian, Mississippi. (Can you fucking imagine?!)

The Carter Family laid the groundwork for much of American Roots Music. If you want to know where three part harmony began in country music look no further, if you want to know where the genesis of some of the biggest titles in folk and rural music emerged here they are – Wabash Cannonball, Wildwood Flower, Will the Circle be Unbroken, Single Girl, Worried Man Blues, Keep on the Sunny Side, name it – they sang it.

Their 78s sold incredibly well even into the darkest days of the Depression and they were all over the radio. You could catch their signal from West Texas to Kalamazoo, Los Angeles to Baltimore, Maryland. You root out any pillar or cornerstone in country music, early blues or whatever and they’ll point you in the direction of the Carter Family. Maybelle Carter’s guitar style would cause an avalanche in the music world. Her alternating thumb and first finger style influenced everybody, and I mean the biggest pickers you can name-drop - Les Paul, Merle Travis and Chet Atkins (their styles would later be studied and dissected by Scotty Moore, Carl Perkins and Cliff Gallup – the baddest mothers going in rockabilly guitar) but it didn’t stop there.

You know where the walking thumb driven bass style rooted deepest and exploded don’t you? The blues, that’s where. Hambone Willie Newbern first put it on record when he recorded the earliest known version of Roll and Tumble Blues which was several months after Maybelle’s style blanketed the radio waves. It became a benchmark of the delta blues tradition used by everybody from Charley Patton to Son House to Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters. Which leads me to….

If the blues were a vast ocean that could somehow be diluted to single drop of water that you could let soak into the palm of your hand – that drop of water would be Son House.

While Charley Patton might well be rightfully known as the Father of the Delta Blues it was House who took his style and condensed it into the music recognized as Delta blues today. Patton’s canvas was wide but it still exhibited much of an earlier tradition characterized by his main influence, The Mississippi Sheiks. House on the other hand honed his style down to razor sharpness and used the bottleneck slide as his main weapon. He married the purest embodiment of delta singing to lyrical imagery that reached in every direction at once, from the field, to the pulpit, the Saturday night house party, to the back bedroom and when he was done with it he wretched together songs with an intensity that had cataclysmic power. There were forces at work inside him that took control of his being when he sang and his slide became as dangerous as a knife blade. If you’ve ever seen any footage of him singing you know what I’m talking about and if you ain’t ever seen any footage of him singing you ain’t seen shit.

House was thee major influence on Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters. Many of Johnson’s major songs borrow pieces from other, earlier artists - House more so than any. You must remember that Johnson’s records didn’t sell at all during his lifetime. His biggest selling record was Terraplane Blues and it sold hardly anything. When Muddy was discovered by Alan Lomax in 1941 he tells Lomax that Johnson and House were about equal and that his own biggest influence was Son House – that he preferred House to Johnson.

When House re-emerged in the sixties he was one of the very few surviving links to the earliest days of Delta blues history. It was House who accidentally set off the “Johnson sold his soul to the Devil” firestorm when he recalled Johnson’s return from Hazlehurst, Mississippi. House had told Pete Welding that “Robert couldn’t play no guitar, he could do pretty good on harp, I told him stick with it. He just beat on the guitar and made a racket – like to get us run off from where we was playing. Then he came back after while with a guitar on his back – we all tease him, say could he play it? He sure could then – he was gone. Boy musta sold his soul to the devil to play like that…” But after Johnson died he didn’t have much influence until much, much later. It was these little pieces from House and the lack of information on him that caused the mystery that drove people to create wild stories.
Sure some carried on Johnson’s tradition and his music, Elmore James turned some of his numbers into anthems. Robert Lockwood spread some of his influence while working with Sonny Boy Williamson on the King Biscuit Hour over WFFA radio out of Helena, Arkansas.

But, Muddy exerted a much bigger influence that Johnson ever did. Muddy invented the Chicago Blues sound, earlier Chicago Blues stuff was pretty pale in comparison – it had become urbane and lacked the grit of the country. Before Muddy re-infused some Mississippi influences it was an entirely different sound. If you’re looking for an electric influence, then it’s Muddy. But House – he’s your man.

And for electric guitar you can’t begin to talk without putting Charlie Christian forward first. Without him you just got a buggy and no damned horse to pull it. It all, all of it comes back to Charlie. Here you go:

B.B. King, Chuck Berry, Lowell Fulsom, all of them were referencing T-Bone Walker. All of them admit it. They wanted to play like T-Bone. Read anything that any of them have to say. Even Jimmy Rodger, who played with Muddy’s first electric blues band – he was referencing T-Bone. And T-Bone, he was just dieing to be as smooth as Charlie. He was picking up on everything Charlie did. Charlie Christian was the first genius of electric guitar. It all boils down to him.

So my recommendations are:

Jimmie Rodgers
The Carter Family
Son House or Muddy Waters
and
Charlie Christian


What a post that was!
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Postby Diamond Dog » 05 May 2006, 17:02

Elvis Presley
The Beatles
Bob Dylan
Jimi Hendrix
Kraftwerk
James Brown
Louis Armstrong
Grandmaster Flash
Sex Pistols/Malcolm MacLaren
The Stooges
Les Paul
Miles Davis
Ray Charles
Hank Williams
Velvet Underground
Sam Phillips
Alan Lomax
Woody Guthrie
Louis Jordan
Sam Cooke
Dizzy Gillespie
Thelonious Monk
Duke Ellington
Stockhausen
Frank Sinatra
Charlie Patton
Son House
Buddy Holly
Chuck Berry
Jimmie Rodgers
The Carter Family
Charlie Christian

That's 32. Should anyone else be in there?
Last edited by Diamond Dog on 08 May 2006, 06:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Diamond Dog » 08 May 2006, 06:21

Yeah, I've had requests for

Charlie Parker
Hank Williams Snr
John Coltrane
Led Zeppelin

Any ideas?
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Postby Still Baron » 19 May 2006, 04:10

The Right Scarfie Profile wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:I thought about James Brown - I'm not entirely sure that the way he drove music was a natural evolution of what went before (and would have happened without him) but he certainly is close to being in here.


But then you realise that he really invented 'funk', by playing on 'the one' not the upbeat, and you simply must include him.


....And the fact that without him, the first age of hiphop would've been starved for beats. Personally my favourite James Brown period is the one which features on Disc Two of the Star Time! set ("The Hardest Working Man in Showbusiness"), where he and his band broke the confines of soul and throttled them with the funk. By the end of that period, the band, with James, as the conductor, had figured a way to hold a chord and extract the groove out of it : "Give It Up or Turn It Loose", for instance.

I'm not as much of a fan of the latter parts of Disc Three, though the avant-weirdness and the hotdamn energy of Sex Machine cannot be denied.

What an amazing Box Set that is. The motherlode. And proof that he is unquestionably* the most influential Black Pop artist of the last 40 years.

Well, unless you can think of someone else, of course!


I never really read this thread as I never had time to get mixed up in it. I still haven't read it, but it seems unquestionable that James Brown is probably one of the big three or four for pop/rock.
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Postby Diamond Dog » 16 Oct 2006, 13:49

Elvis Presley
The Beatles
Bob Dylan
Jimi Hendrix
Kraftwerk
James Brown
Louis Armstrong
Grandmaster Flash
Sex Pistols/Malcolm MacLaren
The Stooges
Les Paul
Miles Davis
Ray Charles
Hank Williams
Velvet Underground
Sam Phillips
Alan Lomax
Woody Guthrie
Louis Jordan
Sam Cooke
Dizzy Gillespie
Thelonious Monk
Duke Ellington
Stockhausen
Frank Sinatra
Charlie Patton
Son House
Buddy Holly
Chuck Berry
Jimmie Rodgers
The Carter Family
Charlie Christian
Charlie Parker
Hank Williams Snr
John Coltrane
Led Zeppelin
James Brown.

The bottom five have been added.

I'm thinking Joni Mitchell should be in here. She was the one that really cracked the female singer songwriter, her tunings were (and still are) imitated by many, and she wrote music of such imperious beauty. I can't find a reason not to include her. Can you?
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Postby Hag-man » 17 Oct 2006, 07:28

Jelly Roll Morton (see NG's post from Page 1) and Django Reinhardt.

(Having just heard all the 4-CD box of the Fats Domino Imperial stuff recently, I'd be tempted to add him in as well. Anyone who thinks R&R started with Elvis needs to hear Disc 1 of that set.)
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Postby The Modernist » 17 Oct 2006, 21:00

Diamond Dog wrote:
I'm thinking Joni Mitchell should be in here. She was the one that really cracked the female singer songwriter, her tunings were (and still are) imitated by many, and she wrote music of such imperious beauty. I can't find a reason not to include her. Can you?


I dunno. She was the most successful for sure. She had the right musicians around her and David Geffen to give her the big industry push. But I think there were plenty other female singer-songwriters around at the time doing much the same thing, Judee Sill for example. I don't see her as being an innovator.

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Postby Sea Of Tunes » 18 Oct 2006, 14:20

Owen wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:How about Bob Marley?


Didn't have a whole lot of influence on anythng else really apart from maybe a few other island signings who did better off Jamaica than on. Even during his career Jamaica had moved on.

I've seen a good case made for the lack of any post-Marley jamaican breakthroughs being down to the fact that he didn't actually sound like much else from there


I completely agree. I have only 2 Marley records in my large reggae segment, and those are the two Lee Perry produced. Bone-dry arrangements, and Bunny Wailer sings at his very best - unequalled up until nowadays.
Marley for me always was more of a Che Guevara-like icon: one who adorns a plethora of t-shirts, and who, I admit, scored a few nice dance-floor fillers: Could You Be Loved, Waiting In Vain, No Woman No Cry, and a few others. But influential? No. If I would have to name reggae artists that were really 'seminal', then I'd come up with Lee Perry (production-wise, also a bit of a proto-rapper, and king of the extended discomix and 'versioning' in general); and King Tubby (unsurpassed in the horns, drums, bass and echo area).

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Postby The Write Profile » 10 Nov 2006, 05:02

Curtis Mayfield?

Sure, artists like Marvin Gaye, Al Green and Stevie Wonder may have had bigger hits, but Mayfield arguably had the greatest influence out of all of them, particularly if we include the material he did with the Impressions. You look at any list of Jamaican vocal groups or performers that either covered Mayfield/Impressions songs or used his style as a template (an obvious example is a group like the Heptones, but there must be dozens of others, including solo artists such as Junior Murvin who used Mayfield's singing/songwriting style as a starting point). I must admit, I'm not that knowledgeable about the extent of his influence, but there's half a chapter or so in Steve Barrow's superlative Rough Guide to Reggae that seems to merely scratch the surface--and even then it's clear that Mayfield's music is huge part of reggae's early years.
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Postby Diamond Dog » 27 Jul 2007, 11:50

Did Janis Joplin and/or Grace Slick contribute enough as the first real female figureheads in rock/pop?
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Postby Diamond Dog » 29 Jul 2007, 15:46

neverknows wrote:I can't remember why the Rolling Stones aren't in the list. Did we decide not to include them, or did we just forget to? :?


I don't believe, and I may well be wrong Fred, that anyone actually proposed them. The theory being, I think, that they didn't change anything? :shock:
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Postby The Write Profile » 29 Jul 2007, 23:07

Diamond Dog wrote:
neverknows wrote:I can't remember why the Rolling Stones aren't in the list. Did we decide not to include them, or did we just forget to? :?


I don't believe, and I may well be wrong Fred, that anyone actually proposed them. The theory being, I think, that they didn't change anything? :shock:


I think it was more the fact that it couldn't be worked out what exactly they changed by themselves. Moddie suggested their role in 'stadium rock' but the problem with that argument is surely the bombastic area-sized sound of Cream would've been a better contender (indeed Clapton's subsequent Blind Faith could be seen as the first supergroup of sorts). I think it's tough to pinpoint exactly what the Stones influences, because it's the idea (and the inconography) of them at their 60s-early 70s peak that's almost as important as their music, if you get the drift. And I say this as someone who's a huge fan of prime-period 'Stones. But yeah, they should be in there somewhere of course
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Postby Quaco » 30 Jul 2007, 03:57

Besides a few people who were specifically influenced by the Stones to do Stones-like music (Bowie, Aerosmith, Black Crowes), it's possible that music would have been essentially the same without them. Just not as much fun.
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Postby toomanyhatz » 30 Jul 2007, 23:15

Quac O. wrote:Besides a few people who were specifically influenced by the Stones to do Stones-like music (Bowie, Aerosmith, Black Crowes), it's possible that music would have been essentially the same without them. Just not as much fun.


Except the androgynous male rock star- though certainly Little Richard or Esquerita invented it- was popularized by Jagger and Brian Jones. Without them no glam.

There'd be far fewer garage bands too, or at least they'd sound a lot different. Think of how many Nuggets and associated bands they influenced.
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Postby Quaco » 31 Jul 2007, 14:50

toomanyhatz wrote:
Quac O. wrote:Besides a few people who were specifically influenced by the Stones to do Stones-like music (Bowie, Aerosmith, Black Crowes), it's possible that music would have been essentially the same without them. Just not as much fun.


Except the androgynous male rock star- though certainly Little Richard or Esquerita invented it- was popularized by Jagger and Brian Jones. Without them no glam.

There'd be far fewer garage bands too, or at least they'd sound a lot different. Think of how many Nuggets and associated bands they influenced.

Both of those points sound pretty good to me, Dave.
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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Diamond Dog » 18 Sep 2007, 14:38

Not sure The Stones really changed music. I can see they're a massive entity, but were they a massive influence?

The jury is out, I feel.
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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby sloopjohnc » 19 Sep 2007, 15:46

Diamond Dog wrote:Not sure The Stones really changed music. I can see they're a massive entity, but were they a massive influence?


I think Hatz's comments about how many bands on the original Nuggets' comp speaks to your question.

Dave wrote what I think almost every time I listen to Nuggets.

Now, I will take your point that most of Nuggets are obscurities, but some like the Standells and The Sir Douglas Quintet (not on Nuggets), and the Chocolate Watchband (I don't know if they are on Nuggets) were very Stones influenced to my ears.

Like the Beatles, they brought America's music back home.
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