Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Quaco » 02 Sep 2008, 19:11

Diamond Dog wrote:
Quaco wrote:Put the motherfucking Who in, Pete. I've offered a number of reasons!


Had you come to Vegas, I may have.

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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Toby » 11 Oct 2008, 21:32

Why are Led Zeppelin in?

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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby chunky » 12 Oct 2008, 02:26

You have Lomax - good call - but no Harry Smith - an unintended omission I am sure, and confidently expect you will quickly remedy. I don't think the less of you for this mistake. :? :)
Fats Waller was something special and unique. Arguably had more influence than some of the more current artists on the list. There is always the tendency of these lists to list heavilly towards our own time and geography.
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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Diamond Dog » 02 Nov 2008, 08:33

Rainier Bassfinder wrote:Why are Led Zeppelin in?


Because others made valid cases for their inclusion.
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Re: Re:

Postby Diamond Dog » 29 Mar 2015, 15:13

From 3rd August 2008 :

Diamond Dog wrote:Elvis Presley
The Beatles
Bob Dylan
Jimi Hendrix
Kraftwerk
James Brown
Louis Armstrong
Grandmaster Flash
Sex Pistols/Malcolm MacLaren
The Stooges
Les Paul
Miles Davis
Ray Charles
Hank Williams
Velvet Underground
Sam Phillips
Alan Lomax
Woody Guthrie
Louis Jordan
Sam Cooke
Dizzy Gillespie
Thelonious Monk
Duke Ellington
Stockhausen
Frank Sinatra
Charlie Patton
Son House
Buddy Holly
Chuck Berry
Jimmie Rodgers
The Carter Family
Charlie Christian
Charlie Parker
Hank Williams Snr
John Coltrane
Led Zeppelin
James Brown
James Jamerson.


I've decided Joni Mitchell needs to be included.
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Re: Re:

Postby Copehead » 29 Mar 2015, 15:49

Diamond Dog wrote:From 3rd August 2008 :

Diamond Dog wrote:Elvis Presley
The Beatles
Bob Dylan
Jimi Hendrix
Kraftwerk
James Brown
Louis Armstrong
Grandmaster Flash
Sex Pistols/Malcolm MacLaren
The Stooges
Les Paul
Miles Davis
Ray Charles
Hank Williams
Velvet Underground
Sam Phillips
Alan Lomax
Woody Guthrie
Louis Jordan
Sam Cooke
Dizzy Gillespie
Thelonious Monk
Duke Ellington
Stockhausen
Frank Sinatra
Charlie Patton
Son House
Buddy Holly
Chuck Berry
Jimmie Rodgers
The Carter Family
Charlie Christian
Charlie Parker
Hank Williams Snr
John Coltrane
Led Zeppelin
James Brown
James Jamerson.


I've decided Joni Mitchell needs to be included.


Surely Guthrie is the Ur singer songwriter and Joan Baez was doing it before Mitchell if you want a woman.

Who invented/popularised rapping as well?

That is just about the most dominant lyrical form today, Grandmaster Flash was a turntablist.

There are far too many 50s jazz men who influenced very little in there as well, how important is brass in modern popular music? Everyone name drops those guys but I think you would struggle to much evidence of lasting influence from people like Miles Davies, Thelonius Monk, Charlie Parker and John Coltrane. They are just cool names to be into and dropped into interviews to make you look interesting rather than obvious important influences on modern music. Far too many of them, and surely jazz drummers were far more influential on the development of popular pop and rock than people who played brass instruments, and which keyboard players have been obviously influenced by Monk?

I'd give Louis Armstrong a pass because he reinvented himself as a pop star after being a jazz man.

But all a bit :ugeek:
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Re: Re:

Postby toomanyhatz » 29 Mar 2015, 20:55

Copehead wrote:singer songwriter...Joan Baez was doing it before Mitchell if you want a woman.


No, she wasn't.

Even without getting into the tokenism of the matter, or even how inferior she is as a musical artist, Baez was not a songwriter until many years into her career.
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Re: Re:

Postby Copehead » 29 Mar 2015, 22:14

toomanyhatz wrote:
Copehead wrote:singer songwriter...Joan Baez was doing it before Mitchell if you want a woman.


No, she wasn't.

Even without getting into the tokenism of the matter, or even how inferior she is as a musical artist, Baez was not a songwriter until many years into her career.


I stand corrected, I am still not sure what unique and influential thing Mitchell would be bringing to the table here beyond her vagina.
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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Copehead » 29 Mar 2015, 22:18

The obvious missing name from that list without whom rock and pop may have just fizzled out by the end of the 60s is Jim Marshall.

The Beatles gave up live performance because amplification was not up to the job of playing anywhere larger than a cinema, especially if you had vocal fans.

Without workable amplification would rock music have become that big?

Probably, but he is certainly more deserving of a place on that list for making modern music what it is than some people on that list.
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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Diamond Dog » 11 Apr 2015, 11:52

Copehead wrote:The obvious missing name from that list without whom rock and pop may have just fizzled out by the end of the 60s is Jim Marshall.

The Beatles gave up live performance because amplification was not up to the job of playing anywhere larger than a cinema, especially if you had vocal fans.

Without workable amplification would rock music have become that big?

Probably, but he is certainly more deserving of a place on that list for making modern music what it is than some people on that list.



You think no one else would have come up with that inside a year or two of him?
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Re: Re:

Postby Diamond Dog » 11 Apr 2015, 11:55

Copehead wrote:
toomanyhatz wrote:
Copehead wrote:singer songwriter...Joan Baez was doing it before Mitchell if you want a woman.


No, she wasn't.

Even without getting into the tokenism of the matter, or even how inferior she is as a musical artist, Baez was not a songwriter until many years into her career.


I stand corrected, I am still not sure what unique and influential thing Mitchell would be bringing to the table here beyond her vagina.



Female singer-songwriter? How many can you actually name before her. That doesn't include non songwriter's like Joan Baez, for info.

There's a pretty good arguement that "World Music" can be traced directly to "The Jungle Line" off of "Hissing Of Summer Lawns" in 1976 too.
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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Copehead » 12 Apr 2015, 11:28

Diamond Dog wrote:
Copehead wrote:The obvious missing name from that list without whom rock and pop may have just fizzled out by the end of the 60s is Jim Marshall.

The Beatles gave up live performance because amplification was not up to the job of playing anywhere larger than a cinema, especially if you had vocal fans.

Without workable amplification would rock music have become that big?

Probably, but he is certainly more deserving of a place on that list for making modern music what it is than some people on that list.



You think no one else would have come up with that inside a year or two of him?


Possibly, but he did it and he worked closely with bands like the who
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Re: Re:

Postby Copehead » 12 Apr 2015, 11:32

Diamond Dog wrote:
Copehead wrote:
toomanyhatz wrote:
No, she wasn't.

Even without getting into the tokenism of the matter, or even how inferior she is as a musical artist, Baez was not a songwriter until many years into her career.


I stand corrected, I am still not sure what unique and influential thing Mitchell would be bringing to the table here beyond her vagina.



Female singer-songwriter? How many can you actually name before her. That doesn't include non songwriter's like Joan Baez, for info.

There's a pretty good arguement that "World Music" can be traced directly to "The Jungle Line" off of "Hissing Of Summer Lawns" in 1976 too.

But surely the important bit is singer song writer
What does being female add?

I don't doubt her brilliance but if being female is important you need female metallers female rap artists female electronics artists etc as well

There is nothing special about singer song writer in that respect
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Re: Re:

Postby Rayge » 12 Apr 2015, 11:41

Diamond Dog wrote:Female singer-songwriter? How many can you actually name before her.


Joni should be there for being the best singer-songwriter of the 20th century but to answer your question,

Dolly Parton, Irma Thomas, Carol King, Ellie Greenwich, Nina Simone, Sandy Denny, Laura Nyro, Loretta Lynn, Billie Holiday.

I think some of the early blues and gospel singers also wrote some of their own material
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Re: Re:

Postby Fonz » 12 Apr 2015, 12:03

Rayge wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Female singer-songwriter? How many can you actually name before her.


Joni should be there for being the best singer-songwriter of the 20th century but to answer your question,

Dolly Parton, Irma Thomas, Carol King, Ellie Greenwich, Nina Simone, Sandy Denny, Laura Nyro, Loretta Lynn, Billie Holiday.

I think some of the early blues and gospel singers also wrote some of their own material



I'd definitely have Carole King in there, before Joni for that matter.
King's songs, with and without Goffin, have been more widely covered (haven't they?!) and were a staple of popular music for a longer time.
Joni Mitchell is/was always a bit more of an acquired taste, but King had real everyman appeal, and when she started performing, 'everywoman' appeal.
Even I like Carole King! :o
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Re: Re:

Postby Rayge » 12 Apr 2015, 12:43

Fonz wrote:
Rayge wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Female singer-songwriter? How many can you actually name before her.


Joni should be there for being the best singer-songwriter of the 20th century but to answer your question,

Dolly Parton, Irma Thomas, Carol King, Ellie Greenwich, Nina Simone, Sandy Denny, Laura Nyro, Loretta Lynn, Billie Holiday.

I think some of the early blues and gospel singers also wrote some of their own material



I'd definitely have Carole King in there, before Joni for that matter.
King's songs, with and without Goffin, have been more widely covered (haven't they?!)


Oh yeah, but I think that's more because Joni wrote for herself and most of her songs in her gold period - roughly For the Roses to Hejira – are too idiosyncratic and personal for others to take on, while Carol (and indeed Ellie Greenwich) wrote mostly for others at first, and developed their singing careers later (but still before Joni had recorded). It's not all soft-pop either: check out this monster from 1967 about her break-up with Goffin, complete with wild doom discords on the piano (her playing is often overlooked) and nods to some of their greatest hits.

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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Fonz » 12 Apr 2015, 14:32

Wow! That's great. I don't remember hearing that before. Those harmonies are terrific. Do you know if they're all CK multi tracked?

Cheers Ray. I'm going to have to go through my dad's Brill Building section in his collection.
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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Copehead » 12 Apr 2015, 17:14

I thought this thread was for the innovators

Joni Mitchell, good as she is, didn't innovate

The concept of singer song writer was already well established

What did she bring that was novel and influential?

As I said being female doesn't seem enough
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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Diamond Dog » 12 Apr 2015, 21:40

Copehead wrote:I thought this thread was for the innovators

Joni Mitchell, good as she is, didn't innovate

The concept of singer song writer was already well established

What did she bring that was novel and influential?

As I said being female doesn't seem enough



Guitar tunings, that's what she brought.
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Re: Without whom this wouldn't have been possible....

Postby Copehead » 13 Apr 2015, 23:29

Diamond Dog wrote:
Copehead wrote:I thought this thread was for the innovators

Joni Mitchell, good as she is, didn't innovate

The concept of singer song writer was already well established

What did she bring that was novel and influential?

As I said being female doesn't seem enough



Guitar tunings, that's what she brought.


Did she invent them?
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