The White Album & Charles Manson

Phenomenal Cat · Postby **Phenomenal Cat** » 19 Oct 2004, 15:35

I listened to The Beatles plenty when I was a kid growing up in the grand old 70s, but the one album I could never make it through was the "White Album". It was many years before I could listen to The White Album without the spectre of Charles Manson looming over the whole affair. As a little kid, "Helter Skelter" wasn't a playground slide, but a companion to "War" and "Death to Piggies". The track that scared me most of all was, of course, the undefinable "Revolution #9".

I saw the made-for-TV movie and read the book. Thanks to the release of the "Rock and Roll Music" LP, "Helter Skelter" was in most jukeboxes throughout the States (and I played it all the time). Yet, something about the album itself scared me. It starts with the tone of resignation that flows beneath "Dear Prudence" (how odd that such a sad-sounding song was urging someone to "come out to play"), and carries throughout the album. Even the cover and insert poster seemed lifeless and dour.

This album sounded so odd because there was so much beyond the simple 4-piece Beatles performing. Examples: the ominous strings after "Glass Onion"; all of "Wild Honey Pie"; the spanish guitar intro to "Bungalow Bill"; the mumbling after "I'm So Tired"; more strange strings ("One more time..") after "Piggies"; the various animal sounds; whatever sound that is that starts "Don't Pass Me By"; the cacophony (beeps and whatnot) of "Helter Skelter"; the piano and wine bottle ending to "Long Long Long". There's so much that either isn't music, does not really serve the song, or isn't performed by a Beatle in these odd little moments; but that's what separates "The White Album" from, say "Revolver". All of this culminates in the monstrosity known as "Revolution #9", which serves as the centerpiece of the album, and unifies what otherwise could have been a random selection of solo Beatles tunes.

It wasn't until I entered college that I actually bought a copy of the White Album and listened to it in earnest. The idea that Charles Manson used this album as a springboard for a killing spree made perfect sense when I was a kid (for some reason, the whole idea that The Beatles were "sending us messages", whether to Manson or to alert us of Paul's death, holds up to scrutiny whereas a "Mick Jagger is Dead" rumor would elicit a good laugh.)

How does the "Manson-connection" colour your view of the White Album? Did it affect you as a kid? Do you hear the album as ominous and foreboding now (even if that wasn't The Beatles' intention)?

See Jym's thoughts on the White Album/Manson connection here: http://www.blackcatbone.34sp.com/phpBB2 ... 706#540706

Scally Mcgrew · Postby **Scally Mcgrew** » 19 Oct 2004, 15:50

I never really associate 'The White Album' with Manosn, even after the 1969 connections, simply because I heard it and fell in love with it when it first came out.

Your point about the 'other sounds', in between songs, is interesting, as they always seemed odd at the time, but, to me, they had a 'ghostly' feel (like picking up bits of shared memory or tuning into spirit voices) rather than anything more sinister.

Matt Wilson · Postby **Matt Wilson** » 19 Oct 2004, 15:58

I never associated the LP with Manson either. In fact, growing up it was my favorite Beatles album and might still be for all I know (it's so hard to tell these days as I love most of them equally). Revolver seems to be the current choice but it's almost too perfect (containing no filler) to be my number one.

John Mc · Postby **John Mc** » 19 Oct 2004, 16:05

Scally Mcgrew wrote:I never really associate 'The White Album' with Manosn, even after the 1969 connections, simply because I heard it and fell in love with it when it first came out.

That's true for me, as well, and Manson's subsequent interpretation of some of the songs hasn't really darkened them for me, although it's something that one remains aware of when hearing them.

I'd suggest (without elaboration) that there may be some texts (which includes albums, of course, 'The White Album' amongst them) that for some reason might lend themselves more readily than others to that kind of (sometimes psychotic) appropriation.

Of course 'Let it be' also certainly has a spectre hovering over it...

atomic loonybin · Postby **atomic loonybin** » 19 Oct 2004, 16:07

I think I read the book before I heard the album. I was not so much a Beatles fan in those days, so I specifically hunted the album out after reading the Manson stuff. I guess I would be 13-14 at the time, 1973, 74. At that age you're impressed by strange coincidences and the power of 'the other side', though a lot of it is patent nonsense. The prime example being 'a voice shouting RISE, RISE, RIIIIIIIIISE' in Revolution 9. Anyone with half an ear can tell it's 'Right' (or 'rite' or 'write').

Having said that, it is a spooky album on the whole. One of my 'listening in the dark' favourites. I think Ian MacDonald had it right (and I apologise for the paraphrasing) in Revolution in the Head when he said that the original title (A Dolls House) suited it much better - the whole atmosphere is of whispered conversations in rooms with the door half open. He also called it the late afternoon of the Beatles career - you can hear the shadows creeping in and enveloping as the album progresses.

Scally Mcgrew · Postby **Scally Mcgrew** » 19 Oct 2004, 16:27

Atomic Loonybin wrote:the whole atmosphere is of whispered conversations in rooms with the door half open

Great description. To me, this also seems to chime in with my comments, above.

Charlie O. · Postby **Charlie O.** » 19 Oct 2004, 16:50

I first heard about the Manson murders the same day I first heard the "White Album" (years after - like, 1975 or '76), and yes, it absolutely did color my perception of "Helter Skelter" and possibly of the whole album at the time.

I seldom think of that connection anymore. Nonetheless, I agree with Scally and ALB (and Ian) about the overall spookyness of the album. I love it, but there's something very discomforting about it.

Phenomenal Cat · Postby **Phenomenal Cat** » 19 Oct 2004, 17:17

Songs like "Cry Baby Cry", "Mother Nature's Son", "Julia", and the many "animal" songs definitely give me that "Doll's House" feel. However, it's songs like "Long Long Long" that still freak me out. George Harrison never really did anything like this before or after the White Album. The song is barely present, and then a sudden crescendo, and then it trickles away as meekly as it came. It's as if the song is being played in another room.

When "Revolution #9" comes on, I now feel compelled to listen to it in its entirety or the album feels incomplete.

As much as I agree with the view that this album has moments that evoke that childhood feeling, "#9" and many of the Lennon tunes tip the scale towards something altogether darker. I wish they had called the album "Revolution #9".

Diamond Dog · Postby **Diamond Dog** » 19 Oct 2004, 17:25

Matt Wilson wrote:I never associated the LP with Manson either. In fact, growing up it was my favorite Beatles album and might still be for all I know (it's so hard to tell these days as I love most of them equally). Revolver seems to be the current choice but it's almost too perfect (containing no filler) to be my number one.

"Yellow Submarine" anyone?

Diamond Dog · Postby **Diamond Dog** » 19 Oct 2004, 17:27

Phenomenyl Cat wrote:. However, it's songs like "Long Long Long" that still freak me out.

Yep, it's always been a pretty odd track - beautiful (maybe my fave Harrison Beatle track) but oddly scary. The ending always sounds like the result of a seance to me - I've no idea why.

Phenomenal Cat · Postby **Phenomenal Cat** » 19 Oct 2004, 17:42

Diamonddog wrote:
Phenomenyl Cat wrote:. However, it's songs like "Long Long Long" that still freak me out.

Yep, it's always been a pretty odd track - beautiful (maybe my fave Harrison Beatle track) but oddly scary. The ending always sounds like the result of a seance to me - I've no idea why.

Even though it has been explained numerous times that a wine bottle rolled off the piano, it still is a strange sequence (of course it details Paul's departure by ambulance if you play it backwards). The rather sour "Hard Day's Night" chord and slamming door that ends Side Three suggests all is not right.

Guest · Postby **Guest** » 19 Oct 2004, 17:43

Diamonddog wrote:
Phenomenyl Cat wrote:. However, it's songs like "Long Long Long" that still freak me out.

Yep, it's always been a pretty odd track - beautiful (maybe my fave Harrison Beatle track) but oddly scary. The ending always sounds like the result of a seance to me - I've no idea why.

It does make for really interesting artistic conceptual type thingys, though. A friend of mine and I often bantered about making a music box for this song, and making it big enough so that several figurines could dance (or rather rotate) circularly around the singer, who reveals himself to be a puppeteer during the drum crashes. The song allows for many odd music video type endeavors as well.

I think it's a shame that Manson had to project his own negative interpretations of the songs, however. I don't ever really want to think of this as an 'album' because the inconsistency puts me off of it. And, Helter Skelter is really my least favorite Beatles song, but I couldn't really pinpoint why.

Diamond Dog · Postby **Diamond Dog** » 19 Oct 2004, 17:45

moonie wrote:
Diamonddog wrote:
Phenomenyl Cat wrote:. However, it's songs like "Long Long Long" that still freak me out.

Yep, it's always been a pretty odd track - beautiful (maybe my fave Harrison Beatle track) but oddly scary. The ending always sounds like the result of a seance to me - I've no idea why.

It does make for really interesting artistic conceptual type thingys, though. A friend of mine and I often bantered about making a music box for this song, and making it big enough so that several figurines could dance (or rather rotate) circularly around the singer, who reveals himself to be a puppeteer during the drum crashes. The song allows for many odd music video type endeavors as well.

With 'banter' like that, I can only imagine just how wacky you guys must have been......

sandy · Postby **sandy** » 19 Oct 2004, 17:48

I think perhaps earlier on in my life I may have been a bit spooked by Helter Skelter and the Manson connection, but these days it has no bearing on my enjoyment of the song, or The White Album as a whole. For me, Bono performed the perfect exorcism, when he exclaimed, “This is a song Charles Manson stole from The Beatles…we’re stealing it back”, when U2 performed Helter Skelter on their Rattle & Hum album. One Manson related song I do find unsettling to listen to, is Never Learn Not To Love, a Dennis Wilson song from The Beach Boys 20/20 album. This was originally a Manson song called Cease To Exist (Manson had signed to The Beach Boys, Brother Records label.). Apparently, Manson was so incensed at having his song bastardised that he threatened to kill Wilson, forcing Dennis to get out of town for a while. It is still eerie listening to a melody written by such a monster.

Matt Wilson · Postby **Matt Wilson** » 19 Oct 2004, 17:55

Diamonddog wrote:
Matt Wilson wrote:I never associated the LP with Manson either. In fact, growing up it was my favorite Beatles album and might still be for all I know (it's so hard to tell these days as I love most of them equally). Revolver seems to be the current choice but it's almost too perfect (containing no filler) to be my number one.

"Yellow Submarine" anyone?

First of all, genius, I said "most of them," not "all of them."

Secondly--when you put parentheses around it--it becomes a song, not an album.

Diamond Dog · Postby **Diamond Dog** » 19 Oct 2004, 18:16

Matt Wilson wrote:
Diamonddog wrote:
Matt Wilson wrote:I never associated the LP with Manson either. In fact, growing up it was my favorite Beatles album and might still be for all I know (it's so hard to tell these days as I love most of them equally). Revolver seems to be the current choice but it's almost too perfect (containing no filler) to be my number one.

"Yellow Submarine" anyone?

First of all, genius, I said "most of them," not "all of them."

Secondly--when you put parentheses around it--it becomes a song, not an album.

"containing no filler" is the phrase that prompted my response.
Lord knows what the second statement is about, antsypants. But I believe we've had this debate about your somewhat peculiar take on the English language before......

abracadabra · Postby **abracadabra** » 19 Oct 2004, 18:17

The Manson thing has never meant anything to me, the White Album was the first Beatles album I heard and is probably still the favourite. What I've often wondered about before is if it should be viewed as a concept album, essentially Lennon's album compared to Pepper being McCartney's... it always seemed significent that the last three songs on the album were ALL written by Lennon: Cry Baby Cry/Revolution 9/Goodnight... like the whole piece is Lennon's changing view on rock/ counter culture/society... and of course the nature of what the Beatles meant and what their 'entertainment' meant... I think it is a great album because Lennon's fingers are all over it... how else could it be so... dark?

Matt Wilson · Postby **Matt Wilson** » 19 Oct 2004, 18:23

Diamonddog wrote:"containing no filler" is the phrase that prompted my response.
Lord knows what the second statement is about, antsypants. But I believe we've had this debate about your somewhat peculiar take on the English language before......

As for your first statement: Gotcha.

As to the second: If we have had a debate, like most of what you've said--I must have forgotten it.

Lo siento, Pietro.

Diamond Dog · Postby **Diamond Dog** » 19 Oct 2004, 18:28

Matt Wilson wrote:
Diamonddog wrote:"containing no filler" is the phrase that prompted my response.
Lord knows what the second statement is about, antsypants. But I believe we've had this debate about your somewhat peculiar take on the English language before......

As for your first statement: Gotcha.

As to the second: If we have had a debate, like most of what you've said--I must have forgotten it.

Lo siento, Pietro.

No need to be sorry Matt - it's understandable that you're forgetting things at your age....

Matt Wilson · Postby **Matt Wilson** » 19 Oct 2004, 18:29

Diamonddog wrote:No need to be sorry Matt - it's understandable that you're forgetting things at your age....

Which I believe to be younger than yours if I'm not mistaken.