The Essential Soul thread

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LeBaron
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Postby LeBaron » 21 Mar 2006, 23:31

Guy E wrote:/images/artist_ovwright_side.jpg[/img]Image
I just got a CDR copy of the O.V. Wright Back Beat Box,


:shock:

The other Holy Grail!

:shock:
Quaco wrote:Are you fucking high?

take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

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Postby cheifwhat » 22 Mar 2006, 00:38

essential...

Image
Mostly dancing sir,...

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Postby cheifwhat » 22 Mar 2006, 00:42

and if anyone was planning to send snowdog that issac hayes, don't, i'll be seeing him on wednesday
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Postby cheifwhat » 22 Mar 2006, 00:46

there's been no mention of any northern soul artist like dobie gray or jackie edwards

did gloria jones only ever do tainted love? did all those northern soul peeps only ever do singles?

what about arron nevil? i heard 'hercules' recently and i love it (i play it most fridays when i DJ in the bar in brick lane)

anyone know this...?


Image

Lou Pride? i bought this from jazzman records (it contains three 45s) and the song 'i'm com'un home in the morn'un' is fantastic. (i have them on mp3 as well).


and may i also recomend

Image

Image

she duets on one song with the now deceased 'lee fields' anyone know anything about him?
Mostly dancing sir,...

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LeBaron
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Postby LeBaron » 22 Mar 2006, 01:23

cheifwhat wrote:there's been no mention of any northern soul artist like dobie gray or jackie edwards


When you re-read the title of the thread, you'll find it says "essential soul"
Quaco wrote:Are you fucking high?

take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

The Modernist

Postby The Modernist » 22 Mar 2006, 01:32

LeBaron wrote:
cheifwhat wrote:there's been no mention of any northern soul artist like dobie gray or jackie edwards


When you re-read the title of the thread, you'll find it says "essential soul"


I think Chiefwhat got it right actually.

Out On The Floor is overrated (and arguably isn't even soul), but the general point Chiefwhat makes is a good one, that often the "essential" things are the one off obscure things that are kept alive through the enthusiasm of scenes like Northern Soul.

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Postby cheifwhat » 22 Mar 2006, 11:54

le moderniste diabolique wrote:
LeBaron wrote:
cheifwhat wrote:there's been no mention of any northern soul artist like dobie gray or jackie edwards


When you re-read the title of the thread, you'll find it says "essential soul"


I think Chiefwhat got it right actually.

Out On The Floor is overrated (and arguably isn't even soul), but the general point Chiefwhat makes is a good one, that often the "essential" things are the one off obscure things that are kept alive through the enthusiasm of scenes like Northern Soul.



you mean 'essential' is a sub genre?

you're shitting me right?




THREAD KILLA!!!!!!!
Mostly dancing sir,...

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Postby Count Machuki » 22 Mar 2006, 13:48

lee fields, dead? i knew joseph henry had passed on, but...well: :cry:

what a drag.

-->
<--

at any rate, i've only ever heard one other gloria jones number, a deep soul track with a slow burn on it. it's no tainted love.

NORTHERN soul is needlessly obscure by nature, i reckon, but that doesn't make it off limits. me, i'd love to do a ethnographic study on northern soul subculture, but i'd have to move to england...d'oh!
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Postby Count Machuki » 22 Mar 2006, 14:20

Image

re. nevilles:

this is a great 2-disc comp., separated by brother. like a dual greatest hits of the early days. some fine N.O. r&b here...standing on the verge of being deep funk.
Let U be the set of all united sets, K be the set of the kids and D be the set of things divided.
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Postby Guy E » 22 Mar 2006, 14:54

solarskope wrote:like garage punk, it was the 7" single which defined the genre.

whilst most of the essential albums have been listed here, this thread does highlight why very few soul albums make top ten lists. imo.

The reason Soul albums don't make Top 100 lists in rock magazine polls is because virtually all music fans start with a racial bias in their listening habits and try as one might, it never gets completely erased. I'm a big fan of Soul music, but this is true for me too... there's always a trace feeling of being an outsider. Albums by black artists never sold particularly well to white audiences and most of us have discovered the music retroactively, which makes it less "essential" on an emotional level. It's also something of a crapshoot as to what albums people have investigated, so there's not a clear consensus among white listeners as to what the "essential" albums are within the pantheon of Soul artists.

It's probably better to just think of the music separately rather than as a competition... The Blue Nile are better than James Brown! The charts have always been separate, the audiences are generally segregated... there's no need for MOJO et. al. to feign objectivity in these matters. It just makes them look silly.

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Postby Count Machuki » 22 Mar 2006, 14:56

Guy E wrote:
solarskope wrote:like garage punk, it was the 7" single which defined the genre.

whilst most of the essential albums have been listed here, this thread does highlight why very few soul albums make top ten lists. imo.

The reason Soul albums don't make Top 100 lists in rock magazine polls is because virtually all music fans start with a racial bias in their listening habits and try as one might, it never gets completely erased. I'm a big fan of Soul music, but this is true for me too... there's always a trace feeling of being an outsider. Albums by black artists never sold particularly well to white audiences and most of us have discovered the music retroactively, which makes it less "essential" on an emotional level. It's also something of a crapshoot as to what albums people have investigated, so there's not a clear consensus among white listeners as to what the "essential" albums are within the pantheon of Soul artists.

It's probably better to just think of the music separately rather than as a competition... The Blue Nile are better than James Brown! The charts have always been separate, the audiences are generally segregated... there's no need for MOJO et. al. to feign objectivity in these matters. It just makes them look silly.


great post.
still, i connect with soul music on an emotional level every day.
Let U be the set of all united sets, K be the set of the kids and D be the set of things divided.
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Postby Guy E » 22 Mar 2006, 15:06

LeBaron wrote:
Guy E wrote:Image
I just got a CDR copy of the O.V. Wright Back Beat Box.


:shock:

The other Holy Grail!

:shock:

It was worth hunting down. The various comp CD's do a good job of cherry-picking the highlights, but hearing the albums in whole is fantastic. There's a clear Sam Cooke influence on his earlier stuff that I'd never really focused on. Probably more Sam Cooke meets Bobby 'Blue' Bland, which is a great earthy sound and makes sense with the Don Robey Back Beat/Duke association. Then when Willie Mitchell nails his production sound things gets very heavy. A Nickel and a Nail is a classic album.

All OOP and they will probably remain so unless Hip-O-Select take my advice. :roll:

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Postby Guy E » 22 Mar 2006, 15:15

count machuki wrote:still, i connect with soul music on an emotional level every day.

I do too (how can you not, it's wildly emotional music) and with kids growing up listening to Hip Hop the barriers will probably continue to erode. But the point is, it's probably best to just recognize it as a separate entity like Jazz and not compare the apples to the oranges. Inducting Miles Davis into the RnR Hall of Fame bothers me. Sure, he broke down all kinds of barriers and invented new musical language, but it just feels so self-congratulatory on the part of the HoF to induct him... "Oh, we have broad tastes, we're hip."

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Postby bhoywonder » 22 Mar 2006, 15:49

I sort of agree, Guy, but would go further that to define or pigeon-hole any music at all is a fruitless and pointless, not to mention impossible, task. As Jesse Jackson said...

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Postby Count Machuki » 22 Mar 2006, 20:32

Guy E wrote:
count machuki wrote:still, i connect with soul music on an emotional level every day.

I do too (how can you not, it's wildly emotional music) and with kids growing up listening to Hip Hop the barriers will probably continue to erode. But the point is, it's probably best to just recognize it as a separate entity like Jazz and not compare the apples to the oranges. Inducting Miles Davis into the RnR Hall of Fame bothers me. Sure, he broke down all kinds of barriers and invented new musical language, but it just feels so self-congratulatory on the part of the HoF to induct him... "Oh, we have broad tastes, we're hip."


right on.
had this same discussion in class today.

the marginalisation of rock begins here.
Let U be the set of all united sets, K be the set of the kids and D be the set of things divided.
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Postby sloopjohnc » 22 Mar 2006, 20:48

Guy E wrote:
solarskope wrote:like garage punk, it was the 7" single which defined the genre.

whilst most of the essential albums have been listed here, this thread does highlight why very few soul albums make top ten lists. imo.

The reason Soul albums don't make Top 100 lists in rock magazine polls is because virtually all music fans start with a racial bias in their listening habits and try as one might, it never gets completely erased. I'm a big fan of Soul music, but this is true for me too... there's always a trace feeling of being an outsider. Albums by black artists never sold particularly well to white audiences and most of us have discovered the music retroactively, which makes it less "essential" on an emotional level. It's also something of a crapshoot as to what albums people have investigated, so there's not a clear consensus among white listeners as to what the "essential" albums are within the pantheon of Soul artists.

It's probably better to just think of the music separately rather than as a competition... The Blue Nile are better than James Brown! The charts have always been separate, the audiences are generally segregated... there's no need for MOJO et. al. to feign objectivity in these matters. It just makes them look silly.


But you could say the same thing about C&W albums not appearing in Top 100 lists. I don't recall ever seeing Red Headed Stranger in Top 100 lists.

Both are essentially jukebox or single genres. There are some exceptions, like Otis Redding, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, but most of my favorite Soul and C&W albums are greatest hits compilations.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk!

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Postby Guy E » 22 Mar 2006, 21:50

sloopjohnc wrote:
Guy E wrote:
solarskope wrote:like garage punk, it was the 7" single which defined the genre.

whilst most of the essential albums have been listed here, this thread does highlight why very few soul albums make top ten lists. imo.

The reason Soul albums don't make Top 100 lists in rock magazine polls is because virtually all music fans start with a racial bias in their listening habits and try as one might, it never gets completely erased. I'm a big fan of Soul music, but this is true for me too... there's always a trace feeling of being an outsider. Albums by black artists never sold particularly well to white audiences and most of us have discovered the music retroactively, which makes it less "essential" on an emotional level. It's also something of a crapshoot as to what albums people have investigated, so there's not a clear consensus among white listeners as to what the "essential" albums are within the pantheon of Soul artists.

It's probably better to just think of the music separately rather than as a competition... The Blue Nile are better than James Brown! The charts have always been separate, the audiences are generally segregated... there's no need for MOJO et. al. to feign objectivity in these matters. It just makes them look silly.


But you could say the same thing about C&W albums not appearing in Top 100 lists. I don't recall ever seeing Red Headed Stranger in Top 100 lists.

Both are essentially jukebox or single genres. There are some exceptions, like Otis Redding, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, but most of my favorite Soul and C&W albums are greatest hits compilations.

I'm not saying that Country and Soul weren't "singles" mediums, maybe even primarily so, but I think it's a bogus justification for the non-appearance of those genres/artists in polls that pretend to include them. They just shouldn't bother... have a separate sub-poll or something.

There are plenty of people who like Best ofs in any given genre of music, but a lot of times people assume that there's nothing past the hits. Personally, I find comps misleading; a George Jones hits collection does not paint a balanced portrait of his work; the same goes for Tony Joe White and Al Green (all people I discovered via Best ofs). Rock fans tend to dabble in non-rock genres and I'm no different; I stopped exploring Willie Nelson after not liking Red Headed Stranger very much.

In Soul, just look at the HI label. Al Green made three or four CLASSIC albums in the early 70's, but they never make any lists. Why? Too solid a run for a consensus to develop about just one? I suspect it's a style of music that just doesn't strongly appeal to the average rock crit/fan and people just haven't listened to them (not that they'd necessarily like them as well as Pet Sounds or Funhouse or Marquee Moon if they did). And Green wasn't the only person recording for the HI label in Memphis; Otis Clay and Ann Peebles also made great albums during the same period, Syl Johnson made a couple very good ones and Willie Mitchell produced a couple of stone classics for O.V. Wright in 1971 and 1973 that came out on another label. There are standout albums from every regional scene. A music fan could get lost in Chicago Soul and while The Chi-Lites may have never created a classic long-player, Curtis Mayfield certainly did. But Curtis and Superfly never get mentioned in Top Lists.

I mentioned MOJO's 100 TOP ALBUMS OF ALL TIME critics poll from the mid-90's in the Bowie thread... it had some real doozies. As far as black artists went, Stevie Wonder and Sly & The Family Stone logged-in five albums between them, but there wasn't another album by a Black American artist that made the cut. That reflects a demographic and an attitude towards music consumption on the part of the voters, not the quality of the music itself.

The Modernist

Postby The Modernist » 22 Mar 2006, 21:52

cheifwhat wrote:
le moderniste diabolique wrote:
LeBaron wrote:
cheifwhat wrote:there's been no mention of any northern soul artist like dobie gray or jackie edwards


When you re-read the title of the thread, you'll find it says "essential soul"


I think Chiefwhat got it right actually.

Out On The Floor is overrated (and arguably isn't even soul), but the general point Chiefwhat makes is a good one, that often the "essential" things are the one off obscure things that are kept alive through the enthusiasm of scenes like Northern Soul.



you mean 'essential' is a sub genre?

you're shitting me right?




THREAD KILLA!!!!!!!


Eh?

I was agreeing with you, you knob!

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Postby sloopjohnc » 22 Mar 2006, 22:22

Guy E wrote:Syl Johnson made a couple very good ones


Yes he did. Great albums. His daughter Syleena is putting out some pretty decent R&B as well.
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Postby Beno » 22 Mar 2006, 22:31

Seeing he post about Al Green's albums above made me think of this.

Image

Four albums on 2 CDs for £9.99 from Amazon. A lot of people on here will probably have them but I haven't and I'm sorely tempted. I assume at least three of the four albums are excellent?