The English and God

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dang65
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Re: The English and God

Postby dang65 » 19 Oct 2011, 11:48

the hanging monkey wrote:
dang65 wrote:2. People who don't have faith, but have no problem with people who do and don't really care about the arguments either way.
3. People who don't have faith and seem to think that they need to campaign relentlessly to stamp out all trace of religion, whatever the creed may be.


There is a considerable distance between 2 and 3, you know.

Yes, I'm sure there are many shades between each of those types. I'm just saying that the Type 3s are really coming to prominence now and, if anything, it gets on my nerves that they are forcing so much religious talk into the media, including into comedy - which is the medium I go to to escape dull arguments and tiresome finger-pointing.

It's like if everyone started going on and on about noise in cinemas, for example. Yes, noise in cinemas is bad. Yes, it occasionally gets on your nerves, but mostly it's no big deal or you don't even notice it anyway. No, I don't want to read books on the subject, hear crap jokes about it, listen to Radio 4 debates about it, see bumper stickers parodying it, or to publicly ridicule people who eat Pick'n'Mix while watching a film.

Um, no idea where that analogy came from! :?

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Re: The English and God

Postby the hanging monkey » 19 Oct 2011, 11:51

It's a bit insulting to compare the behaviour of the Catholic Church to someone annoying you.

I am also an atooth fairyist and an aSanta Clausist....but there's a reason these silly beliefs aren't remarked upon, whilst religion is.
Last edited by the hanging monkey on 19 Oct 2011, 11:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The English and God

Postby Qube » 19 Oct 2011, 11:52

The threads in which religion is discussed on this board seem to be accurately titled, you'd be a bit of a fool to stumble onto this thread not knowing what it would be about. It's a bit like walking into a smoking area and complaining that people are smoking!

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Re: The English and God

Postby Lemon Yoghourt » 19 Oct 2011, 11:58

corporate whore wrote:
dang65 wrote:Seems like there are three types of people in this situation:

1. People who are religious/have faith.
2. People who don't have faith, but have no problem with people who do and don't really care about the arguments either way.
3. People who don't have faith and seem to think that they need to campaign relentlessly to stamp out all trace of religion, whatever the creed may be.

I suspect that the Type 2s are in the majority in this country - indeed it almost defines us traditionally, that we let other people believe whatever they want as long as they don't start trying to boss us around - but the Type 3s are starting to make more and more noise, to the point where they are now far more prominent than the Type 1s have been for at least a century now. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there are more Type 3s. If there are then I would suggest that it signals a major shift in the national character, which is a much more important issue to me than any God-bothering activity, because what will their next target be?


I generally agree, but would suspect that the rise in 'type 3' is a direct reaction to the rise of the influence of religion in US politices, and the way it is starting to creep into the UK.
Unlike the US, saying you are a christian will get you very few additional votes (and saying you are an Athiest won't lose you many either), but the rise of faith schools etc is worrying.


I generally agree with the three groupings as well and I'm also worried by the rise of faith schools. For what its worth, I'm definitely in the second group but the actions of the Catholic Church raise far more anger in me than most other religions (I'm a lapsed Catholic).

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Re: The English and God

Postby Samoan » 19 Oct 2011, 12:31

Davey Avon FatBoy wrote:Since the thread about America has devolved into therapy for Duncan, I thought I'd ask a question that keeps gnawing away at me.

It is pretty obvious that the folks on the board most dismissive (and really outright vitriolic) about religion are from the UK. There are exceptions, but for the most part I think the pattern is clear. So given this...what is it that the church of England has done to you? If it is true that UK politics and cultural life are relatively free of religion - at least as compared to the US, why are you so much angrier about it?

I'm not actually responding to any of your points specifically, Davey, but just to say that my own situation is that I've been brought up not to discuss religion with people I don't know.

I say, people I don't know, as I haven't actually met any of you in person. Some of you are Facebook friends.

The reason for this is probably because, I was born in London (British passport) but I'm 2nd generation Irish (Republic of Ireland).

The only other thing I will say about myself is I'm an Atheist.
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Re: The English and God

Postby The Prof » 19 Oct 2011, 12:43

Still going to the London Jolly UP?

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Re: The English and God

Postby Deebank » 19 Oct 2011, 17:12

I would just like to say that I have never been doorstepped or collared on the street by an atheist.

I have on the other hand been harrassed and harangued, canvassed and cajoled by various earnest and angry types representing one or other bat-shit mad belief.

Pretty much every saturday I get a copy of The Watchtower presented to me by mild-mannered JWs on my doorstep - neither my Cthulhu-fish eating a christian-fish t shirt nor a long, patronisingand impassioned speech about the beauty of evolution has scared them off.
My television has at least 4 channels pumping out theist nonsense 24/7 365 days a year.

And yet the religious have the gall to complain about a few atheists making what are on the whole very valid points...
When is Dawkins going to get his own TV channel eh?
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Re: The English and God

Postby Copehead » 19 Oct 2011, 19:21

dang65 wrote:Seems like there are three types of people in this situation:

1. People who are religious/have faith.
2. People who don't have faith, but have no problem with people who do and don't really care about the arguments either way.
3. People who don't have faith and seem to think that they need to campaign relentlessly to stamp out all trace of religion, whatever the creed may be.

?


You appear to have missed out a rather important group:

4 People who have faith and seem to think that they need to campaign relentlessly to get tenets of their religion made into laws to apply to everyone else, who want to run schools so they can indoctrinate your children with their nonsense,who come around and knock on your door to parade their virtue and who threaten you with eternal punishment when you point out that they are dangerous, delusional bigots.

It say they are rather more numerous and dangerous than the odd strident atheist.
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dang65
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Re: The English and God

Postby dang65 » 19 Oct 2011, 20:23

Copehead wrote:I'd say they are rather more numerous and dangerous than the odd strident atheist.

The odd strident atheist? I tend to follow scientific and creative people on social networks, read forums like BCB, watch and listen to all sorts of comedy, read mostly non-tabloid newspapers and magazines... and in doing that I expose myself continuously to atheist comments, rants, jokes, opinions, and fucking bumper stickers!

I hardly ever encounter religious nutters, really I don't. Hardly anyone within my various fields of interest is religious, or certainly not to the point where they feel they have to start threads on the subject, or try to bring their love of God into any passing reference to science or nature or even education.

For a neutral like me, a "Type 2" in the definitions above, having someone ranting about atheism every five minutes is genuinely dull, to the point where I'm now getting really sick of it. Maybe I should spend a couple of days posting examples of tiresome atheism here as I come across them, and others could do the same for pushy religionists? Or would that just be silly?

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Re: The English and God

Postby The Prof » 19 Oct 2011, 20:25

Can you post some Songs of Praise clips from Youtube?

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Nikki Gradual
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Re: The English and God

Postby Nikki Gradual » 19 Oct 2011, 22:07

The Prof wrote:Can you post some Songs of Praise clips from Youtube?


I think this is one

He's thrown a kettle over a pub; what have you done?"

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Re: The English and God

Postby Nikki Gradual » 19 Oct 2011, 22:10

The Prof wrote:Can you post some Songs of Praise clips from Youtube?


Found another one...

He's thrown a kettle over a pub; what have you done?"

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Re: The English and God

Postby Copehead » 19 Oct 2011, 23:53

dang65 wrote:
Copehead wrote:I'd say they are rather more numerous and dangerous than the odd strident atheist.

The odd strident atheist? I tend to follow scientific and creative people on social networks, read forums like BCB, watch and listen to all sorts of comedy, read mostly non-tabloid newspapers and magazines... and in doing that I expose myself continuously to atheist comments, rants, jokes, opinions, and fucking bumper stickers!


In society as a whole, atheism is almost entirely unrepresented at any level, for obvious reasons

You appear to have quickly developed the persecution complex that the religious seem to develop about a millisecond after someone unreligious goes "er hang on chaps...."



For a neutral like me,


excuse me while I

:lol:

I think you deneutralised yourself there with your first paragraph.

You're with the nutters now

a "Type 2" in the definitions above, having someone ranting about atheism every five minutes is genuinely dull, to the point where I'm now getting really sick of it. Maybe I should spend a couple of days posting examples of tiresome atheism here as I come across them, and others could do the same for pushy religionists? Or would that just be silly?


'Scuse more of those dang atheists at the door trying to get me to disbelieve in god..........
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Re: The English and God

Postby Copehead » 19 Oct 2011, 23:58

I mean the nerve of it, 2000 years of religious crap and a couple of atheists write a book and now we are the bad guys bullying the poor wittle cwistians by making them except gay people as human beings with rights. Da nerve!
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Re: The English and God

Postby toomanyhatz » 20 Oct 2011, 00:27

Copehead wrote:I mean the nerve of it, 2000 years of religious crap and a couple of atheists write a book and now we are the bad guys bullying the poor wittle cwistians by making them except gay people as human beings with rights. Da nerve!


Yawn. Same old same old. The spiritual but religious'/vaguely religious/anti-organized-religion folks are once again answerable for all the evils of the world done by those at the other end of the spectrum.

'You're with the nutters now'- yeah right. Have you ever met any actual nutters/science deniers/religious persecutors? If you can't tell the difference... :?
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Re: The English and God

Postby Copehead » 20 Oct 2011, 00:35

toomanyhatz wrote:
Copehead wrote:I mean the nerve of it, 2000 years of religious crap and a couple of atheists write a book and now we are the bad guys bullying the poor wittle cwistians by making them except gay people as human beings with rights. Da nerve!


Yawn. Same old same old. The spiritual but religious'/vaguely religious/anti-organized-religion folks are once again answerable for all the evils of the world done by those at the other end of the spectrum.

'You're with the nutters now'- yeah right. Have you ever met any actual nutters/science deniers/religious persecutors? If you can't tell the difference... :?


There's two sides and a fence, you appear to be on the other side of the fence.

If you want to stand with the bat shit crazy shouting insults at atheists that is your look out not mine.

I am quite well aware of what the real crazies are like; I did 2 years on Christian.forums endlessly correcting their misapprehensions about science, which is why I am disappointed that someone would prefer to stand and bitch with the them about how horrible atheists are.
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Re: The English and God

Postby toomanyhatz » 20 Oct 2011, 00:43

Sorry, could you please point out where I've referred to any atheists (or atheism) as horrible?

There's also more than two sides (and no fence, as we are generally forced to- you know- co-exist), but if that's your perception go on, then.
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Re: The English and God

Postby toomanyhatz » 20 Oct 2011, 01:39

Qube wrote:I think the UK is probably more religious than it makes out, similar to your claim that the US is perhaps less religious than it makes out.

The main difference between the UK and the US is that Christianity is our official religion, we are a Christian nation. There is compulsory "worship" in schools and while not every school has daily communal worship (particularly secondary schools it seems), when I was growing up my school had daily prayer together. This to me was a horrific experience. It could be a reason that many people simply get bored of religion? But then how many people are unfairly indoctrinated at such a young age? Children should be children. We have bishops in the house of lords for no other reason than they're bishops, no other faiths are selected on this level, and yet these people get to vote on all the laws, religion has a much bigger "official" grip on this country than it does in the US, though I think the influence of religion in the US is greater (despite the separation of church and state).

Also worth pointing out, I don't see a lot of the talk against religion as disrespectful. As I posted elsewhere, one has to realise that when criticising religion, all people are doing is delivering rational critique, ridicule and satire in the same manner that everybody else does when it comes to every other topic available to us, and hope that people have the requisite mental capacity to deal with that as they would in those other topics (this to me, is nothing but a mark of respect). People who scream about intolerance and lack of respect must recognise hypocrisy whenever they use these tools elsewhere.

Before 9/11 happened everyone walked on eggshells when it came to religion, it was given too much undeserved respect and I think what happened that day is partly down to a worldview that saw religious criticism as taboo.


The first (so far only, as I read it) serious attempt to answer the question put forth in this thread, so I just wanted to acknowledge it.

The reverse is certainly true of me- my parents were Unitarians when I was born, and while our mantle was a religious shrine, it was to all religions- Jesus, Buddha, the symbol for Om, a Torah- all were represented. It enables me, to this day, to view religion as a take-it-or-leave-it proposition. At one point I left it, and found that to some degree dissatisfying. Then I took it, in as selective a way as I was raised to believe.

As others here have said, I feel like I've had very little religion forced on me in my life. Don't know if I'd feel differently if I had, but I have a wild guess that there's a good chance. There are American atheists/members of the anti-religious brigade (I recognize that the two are not necessarily the same) but my perception is they're the ones who went to Catholic schools or sunday schools or were in some way indoctrinated as kids. It would be interesting to confirm that.

No value judgements intended, just hoping we can have a civil discusssion/examination about it. It has been proven possible by a scant few...
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Re: The English and God

Postby Fireplug » 20 Oct 2011, 07:34

When there are no more state-sponsored religions, when there are no more tax exemptions or special rules for religious organisations, when there is no more evangelism, when there is no more religious representation in political assemblies, when there is no more political lobbying from religious groups, when there is no more religion-derived persecution of minorities, when there are no more religion-inspired wars, when global religions finally become what some of the theists on here seem to want them to be -- purely personal matters perhaps shared with others in self-financed churches -- when all that happens, the atheists should shut up.

Until then, faith is -- and should remain -- a matter of public debate.

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Re: The English and God

Postby Show Biz Kids » 20 Oct 2011, 08:27

Fireplug wrote:When there are no more state-sponsored religions, when there are no more tax exemptions or special rules for religious organisations, when there is no more evangelism, when there is no more religious representation in political assemblies, when there is no more political lobbying from religious groups, when there is no more religion-derived persecution of minorities, when there are no more religion-inspired wars, when global religions finally become what some of the theists on here seem to want them to be -- purely personal matters perhaps shared with others in self-financed churches -- when all that happens, the atheists should shut up.

Until then, faith is -- and should remain -- a matter of public debate.


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