The English and God

Backslapping time. Well done us. We are fantastic.
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The Prof
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Re: The English and God

Postby The Prof » 20 Oct 2011, 15:00

Zong wrote: if that is your view I find it hard to see what the point of debating the topic at all is.


He just likes arguing.

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Fireplug
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Re: The English and God

Postby Fireplug » 20 Oct 2011, 15:04

dang65 wrote:OK, what do you actually want from us, the large majority of people in this country who don't go to church, don't watch Songs Of Praise, don't open the door to JWs, don't care either way about your obsession with religion or your Da Vinci Code-style paranoia about its supposed power of evil?

To make the religious people leave us alone, all we have to do is not go to church and not watch Songs Of Praise. What can we do to make you ranting atheists leave us alone?


Stop clicking on message board threads with 'god' in the title for a start. I'm not outside your house with a fucking loud hailer. Paranoid? :-)

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Re: The English and God

Postby dang65 » 20 Oct 2011, 15:14

Fireplug wrote:Stop clicking on message board threads with 'god' in the title for a start. I'm not outside your house with a fucking loud hailer. Paranoid? :-)

I see. So, you haven't read a single one of my previous posts on this thread, I take it. You haven't read my repeated complaints about atheism being all over the comedy I watch on the telly and listen to on the radio, all over the Science blogs I read, all over the Radio 4 debates I listen to, all over the 5Live phone-ins I hear in the car, all over the streams I subscribe to on social networks, and all over the Music forums I enjoy reading.

If I could just stop clicking on message board threads with 'god' in the title then obsessive atheism would be no more a problem than Prog is, as I also mentioned in an unread previous post on this thread.

I've become paranoid because you people aren't just outside my house with a fucking loud hailer but are inside my house, splurged across every bit of previously religion-free media which I consume - worse than adverts, worse than X-Factor and far, far worse than evangelistic god-botherers, because you are all over stuff which I want to look at.

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the hanging monkey
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Re: The English and God

Postby the hanging monkey » 20 Oct 2011, 15:19

dang65 wrote:To make the religious people leave us alone, all we have to do is not go to church and not watch Songs Of Praise.


If only that were true.
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dang65
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Re: The English and God

Postby dang65 » 20 Oct 2011, 15:28

the hanging monkey wrote:
dang65 wrote:To make the religious people leave us alone, all we have to do is not go to church and not watch Songs Of Praise.


If only that were true.

Carry on. You hear a lot of comedians trying to get you to go to church do you? What other examples? Many people on BCB quoting lines from the Quran and telling you what a sinner you are? You finding that you can't read a blog without a vicar telling you a Bible story? Lots of people on Facebook posting the latest hilarious anti-atheist Photoshop pic? I seem to not be hit with any of that stuff. Just fucking atheists everywhere I turn! :(

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Re: The English and God

Postby the hanging monkey » 20 Oct 2011, 15:50

You've already been given a list of the negative effects religion has on us all.

A few people moaning on the internet doesn't really compare, does it?
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dang65
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Re: The English and God

Postby dang65 » 20 Oct 2011, 16:13

the hanging monkey wrote:You've already been given a list of the negative effects religion has on us all.

A few people moaning on the internet doesn't really compare, does it?

You mean the highly lauded Fireplug Declaration?

Fireplug wrote:When there are no more state-sponsored religions, when there are no more tax exemptions or special rules for religious organisations, when there is no more evangelism, when there is no more religious representation in political assemblies, when there is no more political lobbying from religious groups, when there is no more religion-derived persecution of minorities, when there are no more religion-inspired wars, when global religions finally become what some of the theists on here seem to want them to be -- purely personal matters perhaps shared with others in self-financed churches -- when all that happens, the atheists should shut up.


It seems to me that every one of those points could equally apply to all sorts of organisations - the banks, trades unions, the old boy network, the military, the major charities, powerful businesses, political inside dealing... any number of people are able to wield power without direct sanction from the majority of the population. What's the particular fear of religion? Do you really feel that religion is holding society back in some way, is restricting your freedom, is dictating the way you live your life? I don't recall ever feeling that I was being controlled by religion in any way. I just can't think of a single example, and certainly no one religious has ever tried to tell me not to read about Science or tried to claim that Evolution is a damned lie. Charles Darwin was buried in Westminster Abbey, with absolutely no objection from the Church whatsoever. It's possible that things are different in America, sure, but in the UK I don't get what's so special about religion over so many other things.

You're expending your energy against an 'enemy' which doesn't even exist. And my main point is that you seem to be going about that mighty task by fucking whining in my lughole!

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Re: The English and God

Postby Qube » 20 Oct 2011, 16:29

There are a few things I want to pick up on but I did want to reply to this specific point while I had time.

Charles Darwin was buried in Westminster Abbey, with absolutely no objection from the Church whatsoever.


Darwin didn't even want to be buried at Westminster Abbey, he wanted to be buried in his hometown. The church tried to claim Darwin as one of their own after his theories could no longer be ignored, he was treated rather poorly until that point and there have been rather distasteful accounts (since discredited) that he had a bedside conversion on his deathbed. While he was celebrated by the church shortly after his death, his funeral (if I remember correctly) was not attended by many associated with the church. It took them 150 years to apologise for not understanding his theory...

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Re: The English and God

Postby bhoywonder » 20 Oct 2011, 16:37

There's a lot of intolerance in the world, it comes from all sides.

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Re: The English and God

Postby Belle Lettre » 20 Oct 2011, 16:38

Hippy
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The Prof
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Re: The English and God

Postby The Prof » 20 Oct 2011, 16:39

Tit

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bhoywonder
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Re: The English and God

Postby bhoywonder » 20 Oct 2011, 16:41

See?

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dang65
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Re: The English and God

Postby dang65 » 20 Oct 2011, 16:42

Qube wrote:There are a few things I want to pick up on but I did want to reply to this specific point while I had time.

Charles Darwin was buried in Westminster Abbey, with absolutely no objection from the Church whatsoever.


Darwin didn't even want to be buried at Westminster Abbey, he wanted to be buried in his hometown. The church tried to claim Darwin as one of their own after his theories could no longer be ignored, he was treated rather poorly until that point and there have been rather distasteful accounts (since discredited) that he had a bedside conversion on his deathbed. While he was celebrated by the church shortly after his death, his funeral (if I remember correctly) was not attended by many associated with the church. It took them 150 years to apologise for not understanding his theory...

Just wanted to see if anyone was reading my posts. :P

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the hanging monkey
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Re: The English and God

Postby the hanging monkey » 20 Oct 2011, 16:46

dang65 wrote:You're expending your energy against an 'enemy' which doesn't even exist. And my main point is that you seem to be going about that mighty task by fucking whining in my lughole!


Nice rant, but I expend my energy in railing against lots of other things too.
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dang65
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Re: The English and God

Postby dang65 » 20 Oct 2011, 16:49

the hanging monkey wrote:
dang65 wrote:You're expending your energy against an 'enemy' which doesn't even exist. And my main point is that you seem to be going about that mighty task by fucking whining in my lughole!


Nice rant, but I expend my energy in railing against lots of other things too.

*sigh*

Yeah, you and me both. :cry:

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Re: The English and God

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 20 Oct 2011, 18:10

Zong wrote:
Davey Avon FatBoy wrote:That paragraph is vague...


I think my irony meter has just exploded.

Unless of course you can tell us how come us lunatic atheists must define further, what appears to me to be an utterly crystal clear paragraph from Fireplug, whereas you seem to be continuosly shifting the goalposts of premiership level vaguery by declaring elsewhere that the religious don't have to define what the concept of God means to them before we're aloud to debate it.

Using this tactic you can change definitons at will to show we just "don't get it" anytime someone anhialates one of your points with logic. Without requiring evidence you are free to make it up as you go along.

And of course you are free to even declare it is alright to use special pleading when it comes to religion but if that is your view I find it hard to see what the point of debating the topic at all is.


Well the answer is simple. Fireplug's paragraph speaks to the justification of some wort of action, but he doesn't describe what action or what its parameters are. It could be used to justify the right of atheists to demand answers from any religious person about their own personal faith. Do you presume to have that right? What would you enforce it with now that you have it? What should be the punishment for someone not acting in complaince?

In short - what is it that Fireplug is actually suggesting you have the right to do beyond what we are currently doing (in which case - what the fuck was the purpose of his paragraph and why do you find such great merit in it)?

Nobody...not a single person has argued against the right of atheists (lunatic or otherwise) to have a discussion on a message board about religion.

As for whether religion must define God for you....

Religion is not a person or an entity. It owes you nothing. Religious people are may or may not be accountable for some of the things Fireplug mentioned depending on their individual actions, but are not each personally accountable for all of those things simply by virtue of being a religious person. This would be like holding an individual personally responsible for the foreign policy actions past and present of their country. It is the logic of terrorists. Nobody owes you a specific explanation of their faith any more than you owe me a specific description of your sex life. It is private unless the individual chooses to make it public - at which point they have the right to determine the parameters of what they will or will not share. Them's the goal posts.
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Re: The English and God

Postby toomanyhatz » 20 Oct 2011, 19:24

I agree with much of "the Fireplug Declaration" and applaud that parts I do (albeit not so vociferously, as I think a lot of it is kind of a "no-brainer," even to us "religious" folks). But it does seem to carry an assertion that the "opposing" point of view is some version of "quit expressing yourself already" and/or "please stop picking on us believers," neither of which are at all true on any level.
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Re: The English and God

Postby Pigpen » 20 Oct 2011, 22:59



This being a music appreciation blog site an'all .
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The Prof
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Re: The English and God

Postby The Prof » 20 Oct 2011, 23:10

Fuck - that's HORRIBLE

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Re: The English and God

Postby Belle Lettre » 20 Oct 2011, 23:20

Listened then? :D

They were rather good tonight.
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