Americans and God

[Belle Lettre]

He created that too, I suppose.

[Zeke]

Don't those 38% see what a god guided evolution implies?

Why would a supposedly benevolent and all powerful god do his bidding via the inefficient and incredibly cruel process of natural selection?

Well, fudging on the "guided" notion part one could take a deistic point of view and say that god simply set up the initial starting conditions of the universe and pressed the "go" button. Perhaps natural selection is a necessary component for a universe that runs itself (once started) to generate forms of life.

Of course that's setting aside all the perfectly natural questions such as "how did god set up the conditions of the universe?" or "where did god get the stuff from which to make the universe?" and "who is this god person anyway?" and so on and so forth.

[the hanging monkey]

Which just goes to show what a useless crock of shit deism is IMO.

[Zeke]

Which just goes to show what a useless crock of shit deism is IMO.

Well, setting aside the usual problems around the complete and total inability to explain what this god is and how it operates (serious problems, I know), what problems do you see with it?

I mean given that you want to "create" a natural world that runs on its own set of consistent rules that will eventually generate not only life but conscious life how would you do better than natural selection? Wouldn't the suffering that entails be more than offset by the value of life?

[the hanging monkey]

I meant useless in that it seems just like atheism but with "god" substituted for "the natural world".

Utterly pointless.

[Medb]

Which just goes to show what a useless crock of shit deism is IMO.

Well, setting aside the usual problems around the complete and total inability to explain what this god is and how it operates (serious problems, I know), what problems do you see with it?

I mean given that you want to "create" a natural world that runs on its own set of consistent rules that will eventually generate not only life but conscious life how would you do better than natural selection? Wouldn't the suffering that entails be more than offset by the value of life?

I know I'm coming in here at page 30 and have no idea if I'm repeating stuff others might have said buy hey ho

What would be the point in a god that 'kick started' the universe and then let nature takes it's often ugly course? The whole point in the sky daddy is that he/she did us all a favour in creating us, hence all the arse kissing he/she engenders. Wouldn't it just make him/her an even bigger twat? I mean he/she has the power to create a whole fucking universe, then just pisses off and leaves the subsequent conscious beings to it?

It just highlights the average deists ability to completely disregard the shitty bits of life, they're so busy looking at how awesome the good bits are, it must've been divinely created, well in that case so was malaria, and the Onchocerciasis

[Zeke]

I know I'm coming in here at page 30 and have no idea if I'm repeating stuff others might have said buy hey ho

What would be the point in a god that 'kick started' the universe and then let nature takes it's often ugly course? The whole point in the sky daddy is that he/she did us all a favour in creating us, hence all the arse kissing he/she engenders. Wouldn't it just make him/her an even bigger twat? I mean he/she has the power to create a whole fucking universe, then just pisses off and leaves the subsequent conscious beings to it?

It just highlights the average deists ability to completely disregard the shitty bits of life, they're so busy looking at how awesome the good bits are, it must've been divinely created, well in that case so was malaria, and the Onchocerciasis

I suppose I would, playing devil's advocate so to speak, ask you whether or not, on the whole, you would prefer not to have existed?

[The Prof]

Since we don't know what non-existance is like it's not really a question anyone can answer.

Non-existance might be better

[Zeke]

Since we don't know what non-existance is like it's not really a question anyone can answer.

Non-existance might be better

Well, then frame it in terms you can evaluate. Has your life been so awful that you think it's just not been worth it? Not so much does the good in your life outweigh the bad but does the bad outweigh the good by a margin large enough to make you say it just hasn't been worthwhile? Even when weighed against any possible future good?

[Medb]

I know I'm coming in here at page 30 and have no idea if I'm repeating stuff others might have said buy hey ho

What would be the point in a god that 'kick started' the universe and then let nature takes it's often ugly course? The whole point in the sky daddy is that he/she did us all a favour in creating us, hence all the arse kissing he/she engenders. Wouldn't it just make him/her an even bigger twat? I mean he/she has the power to create a whole fucking universe, then just pisses off and leaves the subsequent conscious beings to it?

It just highlights the average deists ability to completely disregard the shitty bits of life, they're so busy looking at how awesome the good bits are, it must've been divinely created, well in that case so was malaria, and the Onchocerciasis

I suppose I would, playing devil's advocate so to speak, ask you whether or not, on the whole, you would prefer not to have existed?

I would be none the wiser if I hadn't.

I accept the universe including our world as it is, warts and all. I don't feel the need to attribute what I don't know to a supernatural entity, goddidit just doesn't cover it. Our universe is amazing, what we know about our universe so far is amazing. But there's some pretty awful shit going on too (quite a lot of which can be attributed to religion but that's another story). That's just the bit that never gets attributed to god by the religious.

[Medb]

Since we don't know what non-existance is like it's not really a question anyone can answer.

Non-existance might be better

Well, then frame it in terms you can evaluate. Has your life been so awful that you think it's just not been worth it? Not so much does the good in your life outweigh the bad but does the bad outweigh the good by a margin large enough to make you say it just hasn't been worthwhile? Even when weighed against any possible future good?

I see existence as being about an awful lot more than me, kind of puts things in perspective.

[Zeke]

Since we don't know what non-existance is like it's not really a question anyone can answer.

Non-existance might be better

Well, then frame it in terms you can evaluate. Has your life been so awful that you think it's just not been worth it? Not so much does the good in your life outweigh the bad but does the bad outweigh the good by a margin large enough to make you say it just hasn't been worthwhile? Even when weighed against any possible future good?

I see existence as being about an awful lot more than me, kind of puts things in perspective.

Obviously. But your life is really the only one you're qualified to evaluate.

People do commit suicide so obviously they've come to the determination that their life, at least as it is in its present circumstances, is no longer "worth it". So it's quite possible to see things that way. Whether or not they're being entirely rational in that determination is, of course, up for debate.

[The Prof]

Since we don't know what non-existance is like it's not really a question anyone can answer.

Non-existance might be better

Well, then frame it in terms you can evaluate. Has your life been so awful that you think it's just not been worth it? Not so much does the good in your life outweigh the bad but does the bad outweigh the good by a margin large enough to make you say it just hasn't been worthwhile? Even when weighed against any possible future good?

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

I was randomly born at a random time in a random place. Same as everyone. I could have been the son of a millionaire or the daughter of a slum family in India.
Are you trying to suggest some divine intervention or something?

[Zeke]

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

I was randomly born at a random time in a random place. Same as everyone. I could have been the son of a millionaire or the daughter of a slum family in India.
Are you trying to suggest some divine intervention or something?

Well, purely for the sake of argument, we're taking that as a given - i.e. the creation of the universe has a cause outside the universe. We're trying to figure out whether or not the causer made a mistake. Specifically, do you think he made a mistake regarding you personally?

[Medb]

I see existence as being about an awful lot more than me, kind of puts things in perspective.

Obviously. But your life is really the only one you're qualified to evaluate.

People do commit suicide so obviously they've come to the determination that their life, at least as it is in its present circumstances, is no longer "worth it". So it's quite possible to see things that way. Whether or not they're being entirely rational in that determination is, of course, up for debate.

I'm not sure what you're getting at either.

[Zeke]

I'm not sure what you're getting at either.

Well, I'm assuming you understood what you were getting at when you said:

What would be the point in a god that 'kick started' the universe and then let nature takes it's often ugly course? The whole point in the sky daddy is that he/she did us all a favour in creating us, hence all the arse kissing he/she engenders. Wouldn't it just make him/her an even bigger twat? I mean he/she has the power to create a whole fucking universe, then just pisses off and leaves the subsequent conscious beings to it?

I'm just asking if you think, in your scenario above, that the "sky daddy" made a mistake by creating you?

[Medb]

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

I was randomly born at a random time in a random place. Same as everyone. I could have been the son of a millionaire or the daughter of a slum family in India.
Are you trying to suggest some divine intervention or something?

Well, purely for the sake of argument, we're taking that as a given - i.e. the creation of the universe has a cause outside the universe. We're trying to figure out whether or not the causer made a mistake. Specifically, do you think he made a mistake regarding you personally?

But if all the creator did was kick start it all then I am incidental anyway, therefore couldn't really be classed as his/her mistake.

[The Prof]

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

I was randomly born at a random time in a random place. Same as everyone. I could have been the son of a millionaire or the daughter of a slum family in India.
Are you trying to suggest some divine intervention or something?

Well, purely for the sake of argument, we're taking that as a given - i.e. the creation of the universe has a cause outside the universe. We're trying to figure out whether or not the causer made a mistake. Specifically, do you think he made a mistake regarding you personally?

You're making some massive assumptions there.

We're not taken as given divine intervention - at all.
We're not accepting a reason for the universe or a 'causer'.
so it follows that mistakes (or otherwise) regarding me or anyone are not taken as granted either

[Zeke]

You're making some massive assumptions there.

We're not taken as given divine intervention - at all.
We're not accepting a reason for the universe or a 'causer'.
so it follows that mistakes (or otherwise) regarding me or anyone are not taken as granted either

Well, sure, but simply for the sake of argument...

If you don't want to play along then don't play

If there is a god then god must be an absolute cunt for all the shitty stuff that goes on in the world. If you want to say that (and maybe you don't) then you should be prepared to evaluate this god's supposed mistakes. Even whether or not you qualify as one.

[Medb]

Ok, I don't think I'm a mistake. I'm living a good life, I have a house and healthy kids etc etc. If I was born in the Sudan, and lived a life of starvation and dead babies I might think differently.