Beach Boys vs Velvet Underground

[Jeff K]

Actually 'Who Loves The Sun' is a good example, as it's something close to a Beach Boys' pastiche.

I wonder if that's what they were going for....?

My memory is hazy but I think it was directed more at the Mamas and Papas than the Beach Boys. Either way, they were spending too much time in California and obviously didn't enjoy it.

[Deebank]

I'm not a Beach Boys fan either and for the record they are one of the first bands I remember hearing as a nipper.
They're OK, I don't hate them, I'm just not taken with them to any extent.

I did love the Velvets for a time, that love has mellowed into a 'like' over the years - obviously not helped by witnessing Reed piss all over their golden legacy during their '90s reunion.

Nothing the Beach Boys did will ever be as astonishing as, say, European Son, but I suppose your standpoint may well depend on how important astonishment in music is to you. For me it is still certainly more important than sweet harmonies

[Piggly Wiggly]

Actually 'Who Loves The Sun' is a good example, as it's something close to a Beach Boys' pastiche.

I wonder if that's what they were going for....?

My memory is hazy but I think it was directed more at the Mamas and Papas than the Beach Boys. Either way, they were spending too much time in California and obviously didn't enjoy it.

Oh man...I actually LOVE this more than I HATE Lou Reed.

[Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman]

As that is clearly aimed at me I'll bite.

Firstly you've obviously never really listened to any lyrics written by Eddie Vedder *feel free to add any completely pathetic "and I never will ho ho ho" comments here to prove any musical superiority anyone may feel over this silly little minion*...if you had you'd know your statement above is complete rubbish but I understand because why should you listen if it doesn't grab you or appeal to you?...secondly I can't stand the sound of the Beach Boys...I've never got past that to try and hear the lyrics...I find the harmonies grating and irritating and it's not for me at all...I honestly don't get it.

Every so often (far too often sadly) out pop the anti Beach Boys people and every single time they are treated like they know bugger all about music just because they don't like or listen to the Beach Boys...I've been challenged to "give them another try"...why should I?...I've tried once, even coughed for some of their stuff, but it didn't appeal and I binned the CDs...in fact I gave them to my dad and he uses them to keep the birds off his seedlings in Spring...even he doesn't like them but they certainly scare the birds away, foxes too.

It's perfectly OK not to like the Beach Boys and it's completely condescending to treat those that don't like them like they're silly little children who have let to learn...at almost 45 years of age I know what I like and it's not Brian Wilson and the rest of them...not that I ever have to explain myself to anyone on here for my musical likes or dislikes...the day and hour I need approval from anyone on here, regarding music, will never happen.

I know you must get tired having to defend your views but you summed up my feelings better than I would have. I should add that I don't hate them as much as you do but it is that condescending attitude the defenders have towards the people that don't 'get' them that puts me off the most. They're not happy just sticking up for the music, they have to elevate Brian to god-like status whose work may be beyond the grasp of mere common folks like us. In the end, it's just pop music that some of us might like and others won't like but the BB's obsessives won't have that. To them, it's perfectly alright not to dig the Beach Boys but whatever reasons you give will be wrong.

Oh, I'm not of the condescending kind. People may dislike the BBs for whatever reasons. Art is utterly personal. I think it was Stravinsky who replied to a question like: 'Can you tell me what this piece means?' with: 'Sir, if I could, I wouldn't have had to compose it'. Which is spot on.

I have my own likes and dislikes. I don't like the movies of Tarantino, for instance. The Coen bros.: a so-so. For me, their work is good, but in a kind of 'loveless' way of 'good'. 'Trainspotting'? No please. Leonard Cohen? No please, special kind of guy, but I simply don't like his art.

[Piggly Wiggly]

I dunno Quaco. One does not get to be a fat boy without makng some judgments about restaurants. The Velvet Underground are like a cool Thai lace that stays open until 4 am and has great Tom Kah Kai soup . The Beach Boys are like a five star restaurant with reasonable prices and a n atmosphere that is devoid of stuffiness. A certain percentage of the menu is stuff that seems a little off to you, but most of it is simply the best food you've ever had anywhere outside of John, Paul and Georges bistro across town.

I like my Thai food when it is 4am and I want to scratch that itch, but the food is simply better over at Brian's place.

Hmmm, it's a good analogy, but there's a really large amount of mama's country kitchen dorkiness in The Beach Boys music as well, with stuffed animals and a kitschy sign that says "Home sweet home". I like the place because it reminds me of Mom, but I wouldn't take a girl there. I don't dispute that their singles (and arc of creativity from '63 to '67) were phenomenal, but a five-star restaurant suggests worldliness, and that's the last thing The Beach Boys were. And yet musicians and people who dissect the subtle harmonies hear the music of the spheres. How this group that is one step above inbred made the music they did is one of the great wonders of popular music. Thus, I would say they're the best home-cooking joint in the world, with Brian as "Mama". For their glory years, they had lines around the block. Later, the food was actually still very good, but the crowds weren't there as much, and frankly the other members of the family who started working at the place were a bit weird.

The Thai restaurant analogy seems sound, but maybe it could be a coffee place that stays open late too.

I hear less talk about The Velvet Underground these days. For a while there, I thought they would become a sort of standard reference point for people, but that seems to have diminished.

The Beach Boys are my pizza, really.

Velvets? Hmmm.....I dunno...edible underwear?

[sensi]

I know you must get tired having to defend your views but you summed up my feelings better than I would have. I should add that I don't hate them as much as you do but it is that condescending attitude the defenders have towards the people that don't 'get' them that puts me off the most. They're not happy just sticking up for the music, they have to elevate Brian to god-like status whose work may be beyond the grasp of mere common folks like us. In the end, it's just pop music that some of us might like and others won't like but the BB's obsessives won't have that. To them, it's perfectly alright not to dig the Beach Boys but whatever reasons you give will be wrong.

A lot of folk who have been here (and buggered off) cite the way Beatles fans behave as the height of condescending music snobbery on this site...I believe it's the Beach Boys fans that are the worst for it.

I have never, and will never, offer up an explanation as to why I like what I like...I just like it...nobody on here has better or worse taste than me (despite them thinking they have) they just have their own taste in music.

I could just as easily get easily as annoyed when my opinions are not agreed with so I never offer them up to enthuse about what I like...I could write just as well as anyone else on here if I wanted to explain why the music I love appeals to me but I don't need to or want to...most of all I would never ever deign to believe that I had any kind of musical superiority purely because I like a certain band...all the winking and laughing emoticons on the web can't take from the fact that I have been placed in a category because I prefer and understand the lyrics of one songwriter over the lyrics of another...if that wasn't so sadly pathetic I'd really flip my lid because I'm sick to the back teeth of being patted on the head and tolerated in this place by people who have no hierarchy that allows them to decide to tolerate me or my music taste...the snobbery on this site is its biggest downfall and the reason why the traffic that comes through here rarely stops to take in the view for long.

[Snarfyguy]

I wouldn't want to be without either of them!

They're both crucial and they both give me 100% of what I want from them. In that sense, they're equal in my eyes.

[The Modernist]

Nothing the Beach Boys did will ever be as astonishing as, say, European Son, but I suppose your standpoint may well depend on how important astonishment in music is to you. For me it is still certainly more important than sweet harmonies

I have to say 'European Son' has never been a favourite of mine. Most of The Velvets stuff I really love is at the more conventional end of their spectrum (Black Angel's Death Song' may be an exception to this). Certainly 'European Son' is startling the first few times you hear it, but it's not really something to return to again and again.

[Snarfyguy]

Certainly 'European Son' is startling the first few times you hear it, but it's not really something to return to again and again.

Come off it. That bass line is one for the ages. It's a great rock song.

[Davey the Fat Boy]

We're talking about the praise on this board . . . "The Beach Boys you guys champion." Of course, many of the Brits lean towards the post-Pepper Beach Boys and most of the Americans like that stuff. But it suggests that we don't champion the pre-Pet Sounds Beach Boys, which is flatly ludicrous. It is just less of a cause because its merits are plainly obvious. The only legitimate criticism of Beach Boys myopia on this board is possibly a focus on the sensitive Brian Wilson stuff ("In My Room," "Don't Worry Baby," "The Warmth of the Sun") to the exclusion of "409" or whatever. And yet, when you consider just one of those perfect, sublime records, anyone can see that nothing the VU or nearly anyone else ever did can come close. And I love the VU.

Exactly right.

What do the Velvets have to match "Don't Worry Baby"? Stephanie, Lisa and Candy all say "not a fucking thing".

I don't want to let this one pass.

While I'll grant you that 'Don't Worry Baby' is some kind of pop masterpiece and every bit as good as any of the great Spector songs Wilson was striving towards, 'Lisa Says' and 'Stephanie Says' (I never liked 'Candy Says' all that much - it's a step too far towards 'twee') are GREAT songs - perfectly judged in terms of tone and lyric, and very moving, especially in their Live 1969 incarnation.

Don't forget - Lou Reed could write. He didn't fail us for several years at the end of the 60s. To discount his achievements on any of those five albums (we need to include VU, of course) is to demonstrate a lack of taste at best, and a sort of ignorance at worst.

That is the thing. I am not discounting any of that. I wholeheartedly agree with it. For all of the talk in the last page or so about the supposed condescending attitude of Beach Boys fans, go back and read this thread and you will not that most of the folks plumping for the Beach Boys absolutely love the Velvets and concede their greatness. On the other hand, a good portion of those taking up for the VU are spending an awful lot of energy trying to discount the Beach Boys for various reasons.

Of course Lou Reed wrote some wonderful songs. Who would deny that? But nothing he wrote or recorded is as titanic as "Don't Worry Baby" - and I think these are dozens of other songs I could have substituted for that one. Is there a Velvets record as awe inspiring and epochal as "Good Vibrations"? Not to my ears. I could go on. But I would not do so to discount the Velvets. These kinds of threads tend to create a false dichotomy where the weaknesses of one act get magnified in order to justify whatever conclusion we are trying to defend. But I don't see the Velvet Underground as having many weaknesses. I think they are one of the greatest bands ever. But they aren't in the same league as The Beach Boys. Almost nobody is.

[The Modernist]

Certainly 'European Son' is startling the first few times you hear it, but it's not really something to return to again and again.

Come off it. That bass line is one for the ages. It's a great rock song.

It goes on a bit...too much noise!

[Snarfyguy]

Is there a Velvets record as awe inspiring and epochal as "Good Vibrations"?

In its own way, I'm Waiting for the Man.

Not to my ears.

Right!

[Davey the Fat Boy]

It's interesting that it seems that it's mainly the relative merits of Beach Boys' music that we are discussing here...is it because there's simply not too much interesting and/or controversial to discuss about VU?]

Yup. I would argue that this observation would seem to back up two of the arguments I've made on this thread.

1. We've discussed the Velvets less here because there is less to say about them. Once they click with you, you have already gotten a lot of what they have to offer. By contrast, The Beach Boys are almost impossible to completely reconcile. They remain a great puzzle. As I said earlier, as ten different people at a Beach Boys concert about them and it will start ten completely different conversations.

2. The Velvets fans here are spending a lot more energy trying to discount The Beach Boys than the other way around. In fact just about all of the people picking the Beach Boys concede to also being Velvets fans. The reverse is not as common.

[Piggly Wiggly]

But they aren't in the same league as The Beach Boys. Almost nobody is.

Not even Primus?

[toomanyhatz]

As that is clearly aimed at me I'll bite.

Firstly you've obviously never really listened to any lyrics written by Eddie Vedder *feel free to add any completely pathetic "and I never will ho ho ho" comments here to prove any musical superiority anyone may feel over this silly little minion*...if you had you'd know your statement above is complete rubbish but I understand because why should you listen if it doesn't grab you or appeal to you?...secondly I can't stand the sound of the Beach Boys...I've never got past that to try and hear the lyrics...I find the harmonies grating and irritating and it's not for me at all...I honestly don't get it.

Every so often (far too often sadly) out pop the anti Beach Boys people and every single time they are treated like they know bugger all about music just because they don't like or listen to the Beach Boys...I've been challenged to "give them another try"...why should I?...I've tried once, even coughed for some of their stuff, but it didn't appeal and I binned the CDs...in fact I gave them to my dad and he uses them to keep the birds off his seedlings in Spring...even he doesn't like them but they certainly scare the birds away, foxes too.

It's perfectly OK not to like the Beach Boys and it's completely condescending to treat those that don't like them like they're silly little children who have let to learn...at almost 45 years of age I know what I like and it's not Brian Wilson and the rest of them...not that I ever have to explain myself to anyone on here for my musical likes or dislikes...the day and hour I need approval from anyone on here, regarding music, will never happen.

I know you must get tired having to defend your views but you summed up my feelings better than I would have. I should add that I don't hate them as much as you do but it is that condescending attitude the defenders have towards the people that don't 'get' them that puts me off the most. They're not happy just sticking up for the music, they have to elevate Brian to god-like status whose work may be beyond the grasp of mere common folks like us. In the end, it's just pop music that some of us might like and others won't like but the BB's obsessives won't have that. To them, it's perfectly alright not to dig the Beach Boys but whatever reasons you give will be wrong.

How either of you got that from my little post, the gist of which was, basically, "hey, to each his/her own" is beyond me.

[Davey the Fat Boy]

Is there a Velvets record as awe inspiring and epochal as "Good Vibrations"?

In its own way, I'm Waiting for the Man.

Not to my ears.

Right!

Right. Opinions are subjective. Glad somebody reminded us of that.

Look Snarf - I think "I'm Waiting for the Man" is a wonderful fucking thing. But ultimately it is a really keenly drawn portrait about a subject that doesn't really have any relevance in my life and a guy I don't really relate to. I admire it an awful lot. But it doesn't take me to any of the places "Good Vibrations" does.

[Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman]

Is there a Velvets record as awe inspiring and epochal as "Good Vibrations"?

In its own way, I'm Waiting for the Man.

Not to my ears.

Right!

Right. Opinions are subjective. Glad somebody reminded us of that.

Look Snarf - I think "I'm Waiting for the Man" is a wonderful fucking thing. But ultimately it is a really keenly drawn portrait about a subject that doesn't really have any relevance in my life and a guy I don't really relate to. I admire it an awful lot. But it doesn't take me to any of the places "Good Vibrations" does.

Which is an eloquent statement about my own feelings. Some people can relate to 'The Naked Lunch' (and they really don't have to ever have been part of a decadent scene). But I can't. It leaves me cold, although I can detect artistry in there.

[Bungo the Mungo]

'detect artistry'...

good Christ!

[doctorlouie]

I'm not voting, but I have been reading. It's a good match up. East Coast v West Coast, Art relying on Pop v Pop that makes it to Art, Studio Artistry v Sonic Spontaneity, Two troubled, charismatic figures. Well played Sir John.

For me, I'll take both. Pretty much equally.

[Snarfyguy]

Is there a Velvets record as awe inspiring and epochal as "Good Vibrations"?

In its own way, I'm Waiting for the Man.

Not to my ears.

Right!

Right. Opinions are subjective. Glad somebody reminded us of that.

I was only seconding your reminder.

Anyway, to me they're about equally good songs. GV has the edge in the production department, but for me it pretty much comes down to what I'm in the mood for.

I'm with Bro Louie.