cup 11 -thoughts..

The Modernist

Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby The Modernist » 28 Feb 2011, 16:35

Goat Boy wrote:
The Modernist wrote:But it was was easy to recognise which Balbao's list was. I had a real quandary in that I really liked both, but I think it's in the spirit of the competition to judge the new five.
Do we really want whole lists being repeated?


I don't think it was actually. They both coulda been Balboa's hence my confusion. I just want the extra five to correspond to the original A and B lists, that's all.


I assumed it was his because of Steely Dan. I don't know why it was originally decided to ascribe the A and B's at random, I suppose the idea is to judge the new fives on their own merits. But I wouldn't have any objection if it was decided to keep the lists to the letter they had in their original tie.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Balboa » 28 Feb 2011, 19:23

Well since I just got dumped out in a tie - I think they are just fine. The challenge is that those 5 songs then go through to your next round which means there is nothing new in your list. Whether you think this affects peoples' judgement is a moot point I guess, but I think it does make a list look a little tired in comparison to one with 5 new tracks in it. I think it only right that people vote on what is in front of them, not the original lists. And for the record, I thought the other 5 in my tie were splendid choices (apart from the Supergrass cut) and more than deserving of the win. (As an afterthought, it might be fun to do the tie as just one track vs one track with a youtube clip for each - and then that track doesn't carry forward to the rest of the list).

As I said on the other thread - over 100 votes across the whole thing and 1 vote to seperate the two lists - great stuff!

Re. the cup in general - I do think we should revisit the format. It has been 5 years now? It wouldn't do any harm to think about how it might be freshened up. I do think we get the same drop after the first few rounds, plus it can be incredibly difficult to spend the time on each list as you get to 15 tracks for each. I don't have the answer though - maybe group stages a la Champions League?! The group of death would be fun!!

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The Modernist

Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby The Modernist » 28 Feb 2011, 23:08

I haven't been in a tie breaker yet, but I think I'd rather stand or fall on the strength of five songs, than put all my eggs in one basket through just the one.
I think you'd get people playing very safe if they could only have one choice.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Count Machuki » 28 Feb 2011, 23:43

What about paring the original lists down to three songs for the tie-breaker? Put what you think are your three best songs of the original list up against what the other poster thinks are his three best.
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby The Modernist » 01 Mar 2011, 00:36

Count Machuki wrote:What about paring the original lists down to three songs for the tie-breaker? Put what you think are your three best songs of the original list up against what the other poster thinks are his three best.


That's the best suggestion so far as it would give people a chance to highlight what they think is great about their list. Mind you I don't know why we're so desperate to change things, I think the tie breaks have worked fine to be honest.

However the above suggestion would stop the repetition of the fives which have lead to some comments that it makes lists look stale before their time. Whatever changes we decide upon should wait till next year though, I don't think you can change the rules halfway through.
Last edited by The Modernist on 01 Mar 2011, 00:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Goat Boy » 01 Mar 2011, 00:38

The only issue I have with tie breaks is that the new 5 should correspond to the original list, that's all.
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I read the article, which was nonsense.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby mentalist (slight return) » 01 Mar 2011, 00:40

I'm running out of songs, kick me out already.
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The Modernist

Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby The Modernist » 01 Mar 2011, 00:42

mentalist (slight return) wrote:I'm running out of songs, kick me out already.


You can have some of my mine, I probably won't need them much longer.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Goat Boy » 01 Mar 2011, 00:50

The Modernist wrote:
mentalist (slight return) wrote:I'm running out of songs, kick me out already.


You can have some of my mine, I probably won't need them much longer.


Stop being coy. Your list is doing Ok.
LeBaron wrote:
Jimbo wrote:I will read your link but it seems you only read my poor synopsis and not the article, otherwise you''d say more than just insult my cred


I read the article, which was nonsense.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Nolamike » 01 Mar 2011, 02:59

Goat Boy wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
mentalist (slight return) wrote:I'm running out of songs, kick me out already.


You can have some of my mine, I probably won't need them much longer.


Stop being coy. Your list is doing Ok.


Especially if it's the one up against mine. Yeeeeesssshhhhh..... :(
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby LeBaron » 01 Mar 2011, 03:54

Goat Boy wrote:The only issue I have with tie breaks is that the new 5 should correspond to the original list, that's all.


Then it's not much of a tie breaker, is it!
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Goat Boy » 01 Mar 2011, 11:27

LeBaron wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:The only issue I have with tie breaks is that the new 5 should correspond to the original list, that's all.


Then it's not much of a tie breaker, is it!


Well, no :lol:
LeBaron wrote:
Jimbo wrote:I will read your link but it seems you only read my poor synopsis and not the article, otherwise you''d say more than just insult my cred


I read the article, which was nonsense.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Loki » 03 Mar 2011, 00:37

neverknows wrote:
Loki wrote:I see your point but I have to agree with GB - isn't the whole point of adding 5 to.....um, like, well isn't part of the idea to make it all flow together, or some crap like that?

That is what goes on in the main match. The point of a tie-breaker is to, erm, break a tie.
Like The Modernist said, I don't see what's the problem suddenly, they've always been used in the Cup. They seem unfair but remember you only go through it because your whole list couldn't win when it had a chance.

Oh, ok - I get it now.
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Beebsy » 03 Mar 2011, 22:17

Goat Boy wrote:The only issue I have with tie breaks is that the new 5 should correspond to the original list, that's all.


I've only just realised that it doesn't tonight. I surely can't be the only one. To assume that all people new to the cup would do is daft.

And I completely agree with all that Doug has said on this. I thought we judged the list on its entire merits. So in the way that some of us think it's a bit silly to vote against a list because you really dislike one song, this reduces the competition somewhat.

I don't see what's wrong with posting the original list with the five new additions. Now the only problem I see is that the winner of a tie-break would have to drop those five and submit a new five for the next round but that's not insurmountable.

I just think the lists should be voted for in their entirety.

The Modernist

Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby The Modernist » 03 Mar 2011, 22:19

Beebsy wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:The only issue I have with tie breaks is that the new 5 should correspond to the original list, that's all.


I've only just realised that it doesn't tonight. I surely can't be the only one. To assume that all people new to the cup would do is daft.

And I completely agree with all that Doug has said on this. I thought we judged the list on its entire merits. So in the way that some of us think it's a bit silly to vote against a list because you really dislike one song, this reduces the competition somewhat.

I don't see what's wrong with posting the original list with the five new additions. Now the only problem I see is that the winner of a tie-break would have to drop those five and submit a new five for the next round but that's not insurmountable.

I just think the lists should be voted for in their entirety.


But what you're saying defeats the purpose of a tie-break. You would just get people not changing their votes.

Beebsy

Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Beebsy » 03 Mar 2011, 22:21

The Modernist wrote:
The whole point of the tie-break is to judge on the new songs, otherwise everyone would just stick to their original vote.


But I don't see what's wrong with that. You could still change your mind based on the new five but at least you would be doing it within context.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby the masked man » 03 Mar 2011, 22:24

Yes, Moddie's right; you're simply judging five new songs without any baggage from the earlier choices getting in the way. The point is that the original choices simply produced a deadlock, so they are no longer relevant. It's entirely analogous to a penalty shoot-out in football. Maybe it's not an ideal way to settle a match, but it's what we've had throughout the history of the cup.

Beebsy

Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Beebsy » 03 Mar 2011, 22:26

the masked man wrote:Yes, Moddie's right; you're simply judging five new songs without any baggage from the earlier choices getting in the way. The point is that the original choices simply produced a deadlock, so they are no longer relevant. It's entirely analogous to a penalty shoot-out in football. Maybe it's not an ideal way to settle a match, but it's what we've had throughout the history of the cup.

But that doesn't mean they would produce a deadlock with the five new songs in context. I have changed my mind on lists with the addition of new songs - I'm sure lots of us have.

If the previous lists aren't relevant, it almost defeats the purpose of the whole cup! Baggage is what makes it.

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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby whodathunkit » 04 Mar 2011, 00:12

I'm a lot happier with the tie-breaker system since MM has confirmed that the lists of five don't necessarily line up with the original As and Bs. I'm sure some clever dicks think they can line them up so good luck with that. The point is that 48 hours and 70-odd votes couldn't separate the two lists so we have to try something different -a stand alone list of 5.As Andrew said, the equivalent to a penalty shoot-out, rock-scissors-stone, an arse-kicking contest, whatever. I'm sure I've ended up voting against a list I initially supported but tough shit.

Of course, this argument is then invalidated by the fact that we carry this "stand alone" list forward to the next round. Entrants have not just entered another five but their next five - which is a whole different thing.
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Re: cup 11 -thoughts..

Postby Mike Boom » 04 Mar 2011, 00:58

whodathunkit wrote:Of course, this argument is then invalidated by the fact that we carry this "stand alone" list forward to the next round. Entrants have not just entered another five but their next five - which is a whole different thing.


I think this is the only drawback of the tie breaker, I think the five selected for the tie breaker should then either be jettisoned for the next round and a new five selected or left added to the main list but a new five still selected, otherwise your left with a stale new five for the next round as has been pointed out.