2010 report

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Davey the Fat Boy
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Re: 2010 report

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 09 Feb 2010, 21:00

I'm still finding this a bit of a dishonest argument. Or if not dishonest -at least disconnected.

The issue at hand is not whether people think it is a pose to like obscure music, but rather whether relying too heavily on it is a good strategy for this game. Clearly it isn't, but some folks refuse to take responsibility for their strategic mistakes and simply prefer to blame the voters for their lack of success. I cannot imagine anything more pointless.

The notion that voters owe you a full exploration of your list is laughably indulgent. This game is all about getting the largest cross section of BCBers to find a reason to justify picking your list over another. Creating barriers to entry for voters seems self-defeating. But if your integrity says to do so, at least have the presence of mind to refrain from whining about your early exit.
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Sneelock

Re: 2010 report

Postby Sneelock » 09 Feb 2010, 21:04

"why?" it's the eternal question. some people obsess over it. sometimes it's entertaining.
nobody can know why anybody else does anything and anybody who presumes to know this is engaging in sport.
tally ho.

The Modernist

Re: 2010 report

Postby The Modernist » 09 Feb 2010, 21:15

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I'm still finding this a bit of a dishonest argument. Or if not dishonest -at least disconnected.

The issue at hand is not whether people think it is a pose to like obscure music, but rather whether relying too heavily on it is a good strategy for this game. Clearly it isn't, but some folks refuse to take responsibility for their strategic mistakes and simply prefer to blame the voters for their lack of success. I cannot imagine anything more pointless.

The notion that voters owe you a full exploration of your list is laughably indulgent. This game is all about getting the largest cross section of BCBers to find a reason to justify picking your list over another. Creating barriers to entry for voters seems self-defeating. But if your integrity says to do so, at least have the presence of mind to refrain from whining about your early exit.



sensi

Re: 2010 report

Postby sensi » 09 Feb 2010, 22:24

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I'm still finding this a bit of a dishonest argument. Or if not dishonest -at least disconnected.

The issue at hand is not whether people think it is a pose to like obscure music, but rather whether relying too heavily on it is a good strategy for this game. Clearly it isn't, but some folks refuse to take responsibility for their strategic mistakes and simply prefer to blame the voters for their lack of success. I cannot imagine anything more pointless.

The notion that voters owe you a full exploration of your list is laughably indulgent. This game is all about getting the largest cross section of BCBers to find a reason to justify picking your list over another. Creating barriers to entry for voters seems self-defeating. But if your integrity says to do so, at least have the presence of mind to refrain from whining about your early exit.


Exactly what I think but couldn't word as well as you...nobody owes anyone an explanation as to why they vote the way they do...some like the debate and others just want to go in...vote...then bugger off again...I'm in the in out and bugger off camp...I understand some people like to give a lot of thought to why voting is going the way it is but I really don't...I see it as what it is...the most liked list wins...if people are voting to look good or fit in then that's just sad...if people are picking lists to look good or fit in the that's just as sad...I just voted for the list that appealed to me most then lost interest when it started reading like a party political broadcast on behalf of the canonist/obscurist party...I just switch off when it gets like that. :roll:

The Modernist

Re: 2010 report

Postby The Modernist » 09 Feb 2010, 22:35

sensemeliawopnibop wrote:I just voted for the list that appealed to me most then lost interest when it started reading like a party political broadcast on behalf of the canonist/obscurist party


At this point I must issue a strenuous denial that there has been an almalgamation of the Canonist and Obscurantist parties. While it is true there has been some behind the scenes dialogue between Davey the Fat Boy and myself, it should not be interpreted as a surrender of our wider demands -which remain forthright and unyielding!
As followers of this dispute will be aware we have already joined forces with EPRA and the WCC; a policy that has already yielded significant territorial gains, just yesterday for example both Thesiger and Harvey K-Tel were captured and have now been declared neutral zones.
I would like to assure our followers that these policy initiatives are bearing fruit and that therefore the coalition described in the original post remains an unsubstantiated and vicious rumour!

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Count Machuki
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Re: 2010 report

Postby Count Machuki » 09 Feb 2010, 22:37

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Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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Belle Lettre
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Re: 2010 report

Postby Belle Lettre » 09 Feb 2010, 22:42

I enjoy reading the debate. I'm on the lazy side sometimes when it comes to music so it's enjoyable to see the efforts being put in. I comment when I vote just in case the list owner would like some feedback. They are free to consider my remarks dribbling irrelevancies, but I offer them for what they're worth. They are never very long in any case.
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Re: 2010 report

Postby sloopjohnc » 09 Feb 2010, 23:25

sensemeliawopnibop wrote:I'm in the in out and bugger off camp


Funny, that's what it says about you on the wall in the BCB Men's room too.

;)
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Re: 2010 report

Postby Copehead » 10 Feb 2010, 03:05

What I will be doing when I get home is revisiting some lists we have lost to listen to some of the tracks on their lists when I can access you tube in a timely manner.
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Still Baron
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Re: 2010 report

Postby Still Baron » 10 Feb 2010, 05:31

El Modernisto wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I'm still finding this a bit of a dishonest argument. Or if not dishonest -at least disconnected.

The issue at hand is not whether people think it is a pose to like obscure music, but rather whether relying too heavily on it is a good strategy for this game. Clearly it isn't, but some folks refuse to take responsibility for their strategic mistakes and simply prefer to blame the voters for their lack of success. I cannot imagine anything more pointless.

The notion that voters owe you a full exploration of your list is laughably indulgent. This game is all about getting the largest cross section of BCBers to find a reason to justify picking your list over another. Creating barriers to entry for voters seems self-defeating. But if your integrity says to do so, at least have the presence of mind to refrain from whining about your early exit.




If you fucks would've voted for my fucking list, I might've gotten around to that jam.
Then again, I probably used it the last time we did this, and that wouldn't be kosher.
take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

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Re: 2010 report

Postby Still Baron » 10 Feb 2010, 06:06

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:I'm still finding this a bit of a dishonest argument. Or if not dishonest -at least disconnected.

The issue at hand is not whether people think it is a pose to like obscure music, but rather whether relying too heavily on it is a good strategy for this game. Clearly it isn't, but some folks refuse to take responsibility for their strategic mistakes and simply prefer to blame the voters for their lack of success. I cannot imagine anything more pointless.

The notion that voters owe you a full exploration of your list is laughably indulgent. This game is all about getting the largest cross section of BCBers to find a reason to justify picking your list over another. Creating barriers to entry for voters seems self-defeating. But if your integrity says to do so, at least have the presence of mind to refrain from whining about your early exit.


This is, of course, basically right.

I say this stuff every year, but there are a lot of newbies this year (which is obviously a good thing) who haven't had the great benefit of my rant.

People enter the BCB Cup for different reasons -- especially as many people were press ganged into it this year (thanks, Martha! But the main thing is winning it. Of course, many don't enter with a single delusion about winning it and it isn't important to them, but in the end, the person with the most votes goes on. There are many other motivations, of course,

I assume (and try to remember when I'm compiling my list) that this is overwhelmingly about first impressions- reactions. You look over both lists, maybe look back at them again, and vote for A or B. Different people look for different things, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of people vote after a glance. The first impression is crucial. So you've got to calibrate your list to get the most votes. This is what I'm interested in and this is what the Cup is all about. It is taking the board's temperature. How can you get the most people on board for your picks without pissing too many people off at the same time? I think this process of reaching consensus is pretty fascinating. Because, though there is a certain BCB style, these can be rough, irrational seas. Tom Waits, Nic Cave, or Johnny Cash on your list? I'm probably voting against it, irrespective of what else is there. Is your list full of unimpeachably great songs that have been worn out here in the Cup? It's going down in flames. Are you obviously playing to the crowd? Are you being We might not trust it. Is it willfully obscure or perceived as pretentious? We will eventually resent it (if we know enough about it).

So, the bottom line is NOT about discovery, it is about building consensus with a fickle crowd. And to do that, you've gotta know that people are going to make snap judgments about your list. Me personally? If I've never heard of anything on your list, or everything I've heard of on your list gives me no hope that I'll like what I haven't heard, I'm not clicking on every link to check out every nook and cranny. You lost me. If what I know is absolutely up my street, then I would probably check out a few of the links (if they're there) and if it's a tight contest, that could push you over the edge.

We all have different things we're looking for. I like lists that sell a vision of something, a view or approach to music. I like lists that cover a lot of ground and have musical flow and/or with internal logic and a small amount of personality. I also tend to favor lists that are pushing the envelope . . . people who are stretching outside the comfort zone, but with appealing, undeniable songs. So I reward a little craziness and punish predictability. It's a fine line to walk. But that's just me. So it gets extra crazy when you have to walk the line with all these voters with all the attitudes and tics they bring to the table.

I'm like martha, I think it's interesting as hell, but I also don't think people should expect one thing or another from the voters. I assume many if not most people will make a snap decision about a list. I provided links, but didn't assume anyone would follow them. Still, I ruled out songs I couldn't find decent links for because there's no sense in not having it available for the people who are curious and who can be won over by the immediate substance of the tune.

Before I started working on my list this year, I did some pretty compulsive research about past winning lists.* The concept of The Cup fades from year to year and it turns into something else in my mind. When I revisited the finalists from the last few years before we got started, I was floored by how straight forward and, well, "canonist" the lists were. But I liked almost all of the lists and almost all had a certain spark. Which is why they won.



*In the end, I pretty much ignored most of what I learned, and went with my heart one or two too many times. To my peril. But whatever, I don't give a damn.
take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

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Re: 2010 report

Postby Snarfyguy » 10 Feb 2010, 06:19

Baron O'Boogie wrote:If you fucks would've voted for my fucking list, I might've gotten around to that jam.

Some of us fucks did vote for your list! Image
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Re: 2010 report

Postby Still Baron » 10 Feb 2010, 06:20

Snarfyguy wrote:
Baron O'Boogie wrote:If you fucks would've voted for my fucking list, I might've gotten around to that jam.

Some of us fucks did vote for your list! Image

Check's in the mail!
take5_d_shorterer wrote:If John Bonham simply didn't listen to enough Tommy Johnson or Blind Willie Mctell, that's his doing.

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Re: 2010 report

Postby Lemon Yoghourt » 10 Feb 2010, 10:26

When did the ERPA align itself with another group? I didn't get this memo!

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Re: 2010 report

Postby Goat Boy » 10 Feb 2010, 11:05

Rocky Bronzino wrote:When did the ERPA align itself with another group? I didn't get this memo!


I think your representative was Django!

Do I sense disturbance in the camp?
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Re: 2010 report

Postby Lemon Yoghourt » 10 Feb 2010, 13:51

Goat Boy wrote:
Rocky Bronzino wrote:When did the ERPA align itself with another group? I didn't get this memo!


I think your representative was Django!

Do I sense disturbance in the camp?


No disturbance but I will seek a clarifying conversation with my bretheren.

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Count Machuki
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Re: 2010 report

Postby Count Machuki » 17 Feb 2010, 19:30

So, anybody besides Griff know who's in and who's out? I can't keep track of it.
Let U be the set of all united sets, K be the set of the kids and D be the set of things divided.
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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C
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Re: 2010 report

Postby C » 17 Feb 2010, 21:11

Count Machuki wrote:So, anybody besides Griff know who's in and who's out?


Sadly, I am out




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Re: 2010 report

Postby Thesiger » 17 Feb 2010, 22:37

Count Machuki wrote:So, anybody besides Griff know who's in and who's out? I can't keep track of it.


At Match 24 it looks as though the following are still standing. I've only had a cursory look at the eliminated lists so feel free to update this with further excisions.

Rank Bajin
Jeemo
Goat Boy
K-Tel
Brian
Count Machuki
moonie
Hotblack Desiato
Davey
Matty Red Sox
RcL
Snarfyguy
Kaspar
Sgt Pepper
Mike Boom
Ray K
frimleygreener
brotherlouie
Balboa
Bleep
TRGP
Magilla
Piledriver
hatz
Thesiger
Hugh
packrat
Nancy (not that one)
Joe Moody
Rorschach
echolalia
LMG
John_K
Automatic_drip
Johnny Fartpants
Wang Dang Doodle
Marquis
duckstab
BCB Cup - R.U. 2010: W 2012

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Count Machuki
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Re: 2010 report

Postby Count Machuki » 17 Feb 2010, 22:39

Suddenly, I like my odds a lot less.

:(
Let U be the set of all united sets, K be the set of the kids and D be the set of things divided.
Then it follows that ∀ k ∈ K: K ∈ U ⇒ k ∉ D

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