Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Deebank » 25 Feb 2018, 07:53

The Modernist wrote:I wouldn't!


Me neither - fuck ‘em*



*apart from Jack Nowell who we like.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Nikki Gradual » 25 Feb 2018, 08:49

Can we at least get a a Scot gloating here instead of a couple of plastic taffs hungover from their bumming by the Micks? I now regret spending the previous 80 minutes cheering your lot on. ;)
As for the game it just showed how one-dimensional England are, bereft of any real rugby intelligence. Because Finn Russell bossed the game in a way they didn’t expect or want they were running around like clueless schoolboys instead of adapting (a bit like when Italy used that stupid offside-not-offside tactic and despite it being plainly obvious how to deal with it to everyone in the world except the 15 idiots in white). The England players were constantly isolated, too few and too slow at the breakdown, missed loads of important tackles, passed into touch four times, gave a way stupid penalties and dropped the ball a lot.
Our Nige didn’t have one of his better days in what he chose to go back and see replays of and what he didn’t but was pretty much spot on. I suspect Underhill was unlucky, but only in the sense that I don’t think it was a deliberate attempt to smack someone in the face with a shoulder, I reckon it started as an attempt to rip the ball that went spectacularly wrong. Clear yellow though, didn’t change anything. I think the blatant 12-year-old level penalty that Nathan Hughes gave away kind of epitomised England’s day.
Well played Scotland, thoroughly deserved in outplaying and outthinking (not difficult) England in every department. Even I thought the win was “needed” when some of the stats were read out, like it being 14 years since Scotland had scored a try against England at Murrayfield. I haven’t checked that, but it’s crazy.
Barclay was incredible in the loose, it was him wot won it.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Deebank » 25 Feb 2018, 09:11

Nikki Gradual wrote:Can we at least get a a Scot gloating here instead of a couple of plastic taffs hungover from their bumming by the Micks? I now regret spending the previous 80 minutes cheering your lot on. ;)


Well it’s just nice to see the England machine being taken apart - and who’d have thought the jocks would be the ones to do it!

And anyway at least one plastic taff is on your side - bloody quisling!
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Nikki Gradual » 25 Feb 2018, 09:17

Deebank wrote:
Nikki Gradual wrote:Can we at least get a a Scot gloating here instead of a couple of plastic taffs hungover from their bumming by the Micks? I now regret spending the previous 80 minutes cheering your lot on. ;)


Well it’s just nice to see the England machine being taken apart - and who’d have thought the jocks would be the ones to do it!

And anyway at least one plastic taff is on your side - bloody quisling!


I’ve never known whether to chalk your brother’s very, er, “individual” standpoint as a credit or a deficit. To be honest, it’s mildly unsettling.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Nikki Gradual » 25 Feb 2018, 09:18

I am trying to imagine the scale of Macandy’s hangover/euphoria today. And struggling.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Deebank » 25 Feb 2018, 11:10

Nikki Gradual wrote:
Deebank wrote:
Nikki Gradual wrote:Can we at least get a a Scot gloating here instead of a couple of plastic taffs hungover from their bumming by the Micks? I now regret spending the previous 80 minutes cheering your lot on. ;)


Well it’s just nice to see the England machine being taken apart - and who’d have thought the jocks would be the ones to do it!

And anyway at least one plastic taff is on your side - bloody quisling!


I’ve never known whether to chalk your brother’s very, er, “individual” standpoint as a credit or a deficit. To be honest, it’s mildly unsettling.


With him it’s all about the quality of the rugby - so on that basis he shouldn’t be touching the Nigels with a ten foot pole.

Saying that, the two or three times they managed to hold on to the ball they looked threatening.

It’s nice to see the supposedly mighty brought low- see also Sexton’s piss poor kicking.

Anyway another thing I noticed... Scotland didn’t bother much with contesting the line outs did they? What was that all about? When they made an effort they managed to pinch at least one.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Jeemo » 25 Feb 2018, 12:48

hooray.

don't care about eggchasing

but if Jeremy Guscott is unhappy that fine by me
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby andymacandy » 26 Feb 2018, 16:02

Nikki Gradual wrote:I am trying to imagine the scale of Macandy’s hangover/euphoria today. And struggling.

:D
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby andymacandy » 26 Feb 2018, 16:09

Deebank wrote:Anyway another thing I noticed... Scotland didn’t bother much with contesting the line outs did they? What was that all about? When they made an effort they managed to pinch at least one.

Several rucks too-I think they knew they couldn't out-weigh them in the set piece, but could confidently get into them once the tackle was made.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby andymacandy » 10 Mar 2018, 16:47

Well beaten by the better side, so cant complain.
If we had shown more composure when the final pass was needed, then we would have put them under more pressure, but we wasn't robbed!
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Nikki Gradual » 10 Mar 2018, 19:22

andymacandy wrote:Well beaten by the better side, so cant complain.


What he said. Though on that performance you wonder if there is a worse side than England.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby andymacandy » 10 Mar 2018, 19:35

Nikki Gradual wrote:
andymacandy wrote:Well beaten by the better side, so cant complain.


What he said. Though on that performance you wonder if there is a worse side than England.

They have gone off the boil, but they still have the personel.I would worry about the thought processes more than the skills and fitness.
They dont seem to have the natural rugby nous to work things out that the great teams have.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Copehead » 10 Mar 2018, 21:57

andymacandy wrote:
Nikki Gradual wrote:
andymacandy wrote:Well beaten by the better side, so cant complain.


What he said. Though on that performance you wonder if there is a worse side than England.

They have gone off the boil, but they still have the personel.I would worry about the thought processes more than the skills and fitness.
They dont seem to have the natural rugby nous to work things out that the great teams have.


I think they are just knackered. Thought process is hard when you are knackered and even professional sportsmen struggle, mentally especially, after the year that some of them have had.

The front 5 were the foundation of the Lions test team, the back row is cobbled together due to injuries and simply isn't up to it at this level, it falls between 2 stools of youth and experience and it will be difficult to put right in 18 months even if Billy V is back to his best then, and it doesn't matter how good your backs are if your pack isn't at the races as Scotland often demonstrate. Although the experiment with Te'o over JJ has probably run its course.

The ultra competitive nature of the AP means that many of England's top performers haven't had any appreciable break except when injured for 2 years or more now.

The England players need a Summer off before the 12 month run in to the RWC, Billy Vunipola back and to find a young 7 who can stake his place in the squad on merit, there are a few alternatives and one needs to stand out from the others now.

This 6N is a write off all they can do now is spoil Ireland's party which hopefully they will do in style next week although it will take an almighty effort and then they have the AP run in and the European Cup. No English club will get near that and Exeter will win the AP because they have been less effect by England call ups.

But by and large I would put it down to physical and mental fatigue and an unbalanced back row due to injuries. One of those problems is easier to deal with than the other,
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby andymacandy » 11 Mar 2018, 09:33

Copehead wrote:
I think they are just knackered. Thought process is hard when you are knackered and even professional sportsmen struggle, mentally especially, after the year that some of them have had.

The front 5 were the foundation of the Lions test team, the back row is cobbled together due to injuries and simply isn't up to it at this level, it falls between 2 stools of youth and experience and it will be difficult to put right in 18 months even if Billy V is back to his best then, and it doesn't matter how good your backs are if your pack isn't at the races as Scotland often demonstrate. Although the experiment with Te'o over JJ has probably run its course.

The ultra competitive nature of the AP means that many of England's top performers haven't had any appreciable break except when injured for 2 years or more now.

The England players need a Summer off before the 12 month run in to the RWC, Billy Vunipola back and to find a young 7 who can stake his place in the squad on merit, there are a few alternatives and one needs to stand out from the others now.

This 6N is a write off all they can do now is spoil Ireland's party which hopefully they will do in style next week although it will take an almighty effort and then they have the AP run in and the European Cup. No English club will get near that and Exeter will win the AP because they have been less effect by England call ups.

But by and large I would put it down to physical and mental fatigue and an unbalanced back row due to injuries. One of those problems is easier to deal with than the other,

I agree, but given the strength and depth of English rugby, Id have to say that Ireland have handled similar issues much better, with a much smaller pool of players.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Copehead » 11 Mar 2018, 10:19

andymacandy wrote:
Copehead wrote:
I think they are just knackered. Thought process is hard when you are knackered and even professional sportsmen struggle, mentally especially, after the year that some of them have had.

The front 5 were the foundation of the Lions test team, the back row is cobbled together due to injuries and simply isn't up to it at this level, it falls between 2 stools of youth and experience and it will be difficult to put right in 18 months even if Billy V is back to his best then, and it doesn't matter how good your backs are if your pack isn't at the races as Scotland often demonstrate. Although the experiment with Te'o over JJ has probably run its course.

The ultra competitive nature of the AP means that many of England's top performers haven't had any appreciable break except when injured for 2 years or more now.

The England players need a Summer off before the 12 month run in to the RWC, Billy Vunipola back and to find a young 7 who can stake his place in the squad on merit, there are a few alternatives and one needs to stand out from the others now.

This 6N is a write off all they can do now is spoil Ireland's party which hopefully they will do in style next week although it will take an almighty effort and then they have the AP run in and the European Cup. No English club will get near that and Exeter will win the AP because they have been less effect by England call ups.

But by and large I would put it down to physical and mental fatigue and an unbalanced back row due to injuries. One of those problems is easier to deal with than the other,

I agree, but given the strength and depth of English rugby, Id have to say that Ireland have handled similar issues much better, with a much smaller pool of players.


It's the pack that count and only two of Ireland's players were starting forwards and both are injured at the moment, plus they get more rest in the Pro14 because the IRU run the provinces and limit the amount of rugby they play.

In fact only Murray and Sexton were starting Lions out of that lot weren't they? Stander on the bench perhaps?

The England players are flogged week in week out.

Still not my problem, they could change that if they wanted, ring fence the premiership and do the same, plus they have the largest playing numbers in the world so won't shed any tears for them, they'll be back anyway.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Nikki Gradual » 17 Mar 2018, 20:37

End of term report.

England has never finished that low in the Six Nations and, even in the Five Nations days, you have to go back to 1987 to find this bad a showing. To be honest, I have no complaints, it is fair reflection of how they played and the talent they displayed. Playing back to front rugby at the moment and only come alive when the subs come on. That's fine if you are 20 points up at 60 mins, but...
A year ago people were touting them as possibly the best team in the world, now they have a year to completely deconstruct and rebuild for the World Cup. There is something seriously wrong at the tactical, game-sense level and again and again they prove that they are the flat track bullies of world rugby and any deviation from the way and tempo they want to play at causes them to implode. There is talent there, but they are not good enough to impose their gameplan and not smart enough to adapt it when they need to.
Ireland: great year, utterly dominant, Andy Farrell has been worth his weight in gold, they are a fortress in defence. Horrible rugby for the most part, but this team is peaking at the right time. Scary prospect for next year for everyone else.
Wales: bit of a meh* year despite the runners-up spot, could have gone a lot worse, some nice moments that suggest that when the full team is available, well, who knows what they can do? Fly half still seems to be the missing piece of a potentially world-cup-challenging jigsaw. * By meh, I mean "magnificent considering the injuries they had and the forlorn way they went into the championship".
France: probably surprisingly encouraging. They won a couple and two that they lost (Wales and Scotland) were purely down to their own tactical and kicking ineptitude. They nearly threw it away similarly against the English, but were matched by equal incompetence and let off. There is light at the end of the tunnel for France, which is good for rugby and bad for New Zealand who will inevitably succumb to one world-class French performance in 2019.
Scotland: a great year for them. Thank Christ Laidlaw came back though; they would have lost to Italy without him and that would have damaged them psychologically. Big time. If they can get through the autumn internationals, anything can happen. It's all in their heads, now. We all know what they can do, but I am not convinced they do. It does worry me how much they depend on a small number of the squad and especially how mercurial Russell can be.
Italy: a sad way for Sergio to go out (probably, no official announcement yet I don't think), but actually a good year combatting the critics who say they shouldn't be in the championship. Competed pretty well for the most part and nearly won a couple.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby andymacandy » 17 Mar 2018, 22:13

Nikki Gradual wrote:a sad way for Sergio to go out (probably, no official announcement yet I don't think)

I'll come back to the rest,which I broadly agree with , but this is worth highlighting.The man has been an absolute warrior for 20 odd years.
It saddens me slightly that he will have virtually nothing to take from his international career other than an unenviable losing record.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Deebank » 18 Mar 2018, 12:42

andymacandy wrote:
Nikki Gradual wrote:a sad way for Sergio to go out (probably, no official announcement yet I don't think)

I'll come back to the rest,which I broadly agree with , but this is worth highlighting.The man has been an absolute warrior for 20 odd years.
It saddens me slightly that he will have virtually nothing to take from his international career other than an unenviable losing record.



Well, he has the admiration of pretty much everyone in the RU world.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Geezee » 19 Mar 2018, 09:12

Nikki Gradual wrote:End of term report.

England has never finished that low in the Six Nations and, even in the Five Nations days, you have to go back to 1987 to find this bad a showing. To be honest, I have no complaints, it is fair reflection of how they played and the talent they displayed. Playing back to front rugby at the moment and only come alive when the subs come on. That's fine if you are 20 points up at 60 mins, but...
A year ago people were touting them as possibly the best team in the world, now they have a year to completely deconstruct and rebuild for the World Cup. There is something seriously wrong at the tactical, game-sense level and again and again they prove that they are the flat track bullies of world rugby and any deviation from the way and tempo they want to play at causes them to implode. There is talent there, but they are not good enough to impose their gameplan and not smart enough to adapt it when they need to.
Ireland: great year, utterly dominant, Andy Farrell has been worth his weight in gold, they are a fortress in defence. Horrible rugby for the most part, but this team is peaking at the right time. Scary prospect for next year for everyone else.
Wales: bit of a meh* year despite the runners-up spot, could have gone a lot worse, some nice moments that suggest that when the full team is available, well, who knows what they can do? Fly half still seems to be the missing piece of a potentially world-cup-challenging jigsaw. * By meh, I mean "magnificent considering the injuries they had and the forlorn way they went into the championship".
France: probably surprisingly encouraging. They won a couple and two that they lost (Wales and Scotland) were purely down to their own tactical and kicking ineptitude. They nearly threw it away similarly against the English, but were matched by equal incompetence and let off. There is light at the end of the tunnel for France, which is good for rugby and bad for New Zealand who will inevitably succumb to one world-class French performance in 2019.
Scotland: a great year for them. Thank Christ Laidlaw came back though; they would have lost to Italy without him and that would have damaged them psychologically. Big time. If they can get through the autumn internationals, anything can happen. It's all in their heads, now. We all know what they can do, but I am not convinced they do. It does worry me how much they depend on a small number of the squad and especially how mercurial Russell can be.
Italy: a sad way for Sergio to go out (probably, no official announcement yet I don't think), but actually a good year combatting the critics who say they shouldn't be in the championship. Competed pretty well for the most part and nearly won a couple.


To me it really did look like England just ran out of steam, which isn't perhaps a very sophisticated analysis - but while I agree that tempo and tactics were issues, it seemed to me to be mainly about fatigue than anything else. There are for sure questions that need to be asked - and I think they have issues at 10 - but generally I think as Copes was saying they need a break more than any significant restructuring. It was so strange to see them in these last few games - they just completely lost their rhythm and aggression.

Fantastic play by the Irish - those final phases against France really deserve to win any championship. There is so much to admire in Ireland's game management. As usual, thoroughly enjoyed the championship - although it is a shame to see Italy taking a few steps backwards. It did seem for a few years there that they were really building something, but the last couple of years seem to have gone in a different direction. I do really wish they had a relegation system here.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Nikki Gradual » 19 Mar 2018, 10:51

Geezee wrote:To me it really did look like England just ran out of steam, which isn't perhaps a very sophisticated analysis - but while I agree that tempo and tactics were issues, it seemed to me to be mainly about fatigue than anything else. There are for sure questions that need to be asked - and I think they have issues at 10 - but generally I think as Copes was saying they need a break more than any significant restructuring. It was so strange to see them in these last few games - they just completely lost their rhythm and aggression.


Fair point, but it was a concern even last year, especially during the Italy fiasco when it was blindingly obvious to every armchair fan that if Italy weren't contesting, all England had to do was pick the ball up and either run riot or force the Italians into the loose. Instead they floundered around like idiots and that was symptomatic of this team for me. Hartley may have the attitude Eddie wants, but he has no rugby brain and the others aren't much brighter. They just emphasised these shortcomings this season. You are absolutely right about 10 being an issue, whenever Ford is on I want him off, whenever he is off I want him on. The problem is that the problems at 10 have a domino effect and while Farrell is doing pretty well, the 12-13 pairing is compromised by a de facto 10.5 playing out of inside centre. Bit like when Catt was there.
To be honest, even when they were on that incredible streak of wins, it really wasn't that convincing. It was only Copehead who really seems to swallow the hype.

Geezee wrote:Fantastic play by the Irish - those final phases against France really deserve to win any championship. There is so much to admire in Ireland's game management.


The Irish have an air of invincibility, as if they know they are going to win the moment they step onto the field. That is very very hard to play against. They are an extremely well-drilled and well-oiled machine and I wouldn't bet against them being at least finalists in the RWC.

Geezee wrote:As usual, thoroughly enjoyed the championship - although it is a shame to see Italy taking a few steps backwards. It did seem for a few years there that they were really building something, but the last couple of years seem to have gone in a different direction. I do really wish they had a relegation system here.


Agree with this, too. There are nearly enough teams on the cusp at the moment to make a second division (Europe). But there is the danger that it could end up with a terrible yo-yo effect.
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