Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Geezee » 04 Jul 2017, 15:57

Copehead wrote:
Mike Boom wrote:Having said that, the penalty that decided the game was completely stupid. So now whenever a player receives the ball and looks like he's about to be tackled he can jump up in the air and get a penalty. In future game are we going to see players pogoing down the field ?


No: if Sinckler jumps in the air with the ball in his possession into the tackle it is a penalty against him - jumping into a tackle. This is not against the laws directly but is generally thought to be against the spirit of the game and every ref will give a penalty against the player.


That's quite strange - I assumed it was in the laws of the game but actually it's not - at the moment it comes in under the "sportsmanship" rule, which doesn't clarify anything and is very inconsistently applied (according to some basic reading I've just done). Jumping into the tackle is hugely dangerous both for the tackler and the tackled person, and there's the risk of abuse which this incident brought a discussion about (even though I think for sure it was a penalty). It seems to me that they really need to spell out that rule.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Copehead » 04 Jul 2017, 17:54

Geezee wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Mike Boom wrote:Having said that, the penalty that decided the game was completely stupid. So now whenever a player receives the ball and looks like he's about to be tackled he can jump up in the air and get a penalty. In future game are we going to see players pogoing down the field ?


No: if Sinckler jumps in the air with the ball in his possession into the tackle it is a penalty against him - jumping into a tackle. This is not against the laws directly but is generally thought to be against the spirit of the game and every ref will give a penalty against the player.


That's quite strange - I assumed it was in the laws of the game but actually it's not - at the moment it comes in under the "sportsmanship" rule, which doesn't clarify anything and is very inconsistently applied (according to some basic reading I've just done). Jumping into the tackle is hugely dangerous both for the tackler and the tackled person, and there's the risk of abuse which this incident brought a discussion about (even though I think for sure it was a penalty). It seems to me that they really need to spell out that rule.


It is just a convention that you can't jump into a tackle but it is so deeply engrained from an early age in all rugby players that I don't think I have ever seen it happen.

They don't like adding new laws so things like this generally come under the sportsmanship laws and it is left at that

I don't think it is inconsistently reffed because it happens so rarely especially at the top level, I think it was just Garces' imperfect English that lead to a bit of head scratching here, but the incident was called correctly an unfortunate, if you are a New Zealand fan, penalty, the timing was out by a second, but it is fine margins at that level
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby The Red Heifer » 04 Jul 2017, 22:41

The Write Profile wrote:
Copehead wrote:
The SBW red isn't even an issue it was blatant and stupid, 4 weeks is lenient


Yeah, no one is protesting that. I think we've just seen him play his last ever game for the ABs. Granted, he's largely been a fair player on and off the field but I don't think Hansen will stand for that incident.


That'd be a shame, despite some of his antics early on always thought he's been a truly exceptional talent in both codes. Got on the Chiefs when they won their first comp at 16/1 merely on the fact that he signed for them. Made me a mini hero in the wife's family :lol: :lol:
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Geezee » 05 Jul 2017, 09:05

Copehead wrote:
Geezee wrote:
Copehead wrote:
No: if Sinckler jumps in the air with the ball in his possession into the tackle it is a penalty against him - jumping into a tackle. This is not against the laws directly but is generally thought to be against the spirit of the game and every ref will give a penalty against the player.


That's quite strange - I assumed it was in the laws of the game but actually it's not - at the moment it comes in under the "sportsmanship" rule, which doesn't clarify anything and is very inconsistently applied (according to some basic reading I've just done). Jumping into the tackle is hugely dangerous both for the tackler and the tackled person, and there's the risk of abuse which this incident brought a discussion about (even though I think for sure it was a penalty). It seems to me that they really need to spell out that rule.


It is just a convention that you can't jump into a tackle but it is so deeply engrained from an early age in all rugby players that I don't think I have ever seen it happen.

They don't like adding new laws so things like this generally come under the sportsmanship laws and it is left at that

I don't think it is inconsistently reffed because it happens so rarely especially at the top level, I think it was just Garces' imperfect English that lead to a bit of head scratching here, but the incident was called correctly an unfortunate, if you are a New Zealand fan, penalty, the timing was out by a second, but it is fine margins at that level


The discussions I've read mention that Shane Williams was a persistent offender (including injuring the tackling player in the process). I admit I don't recall these myself very well. But it seems to me pretty obvious that if refs are instructed to clamp down on any tackles in the air, you need to simultaneously remove any incentive that someone who is about to be tackled may have to jump. Again, although i think the penalty call was right, Sinckler's jump was a bit, well, weird.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Copehead » 05 Jul 2017, 18:14

Geezee wrote:
Copehead wrote:
Geezee wrote:
That's quite strange - I assumed it was in the laws of the game but actually it's not - at the moment it comes in under the "sportsmanship" rule, which doesn't clarify anything and is very inconsistently applied (according to some basic reading I've just done). Jumping into the tackle is hugely dangerous both for the tackler and the tackled person, and there's the risk of abuse which this incident brought a discussion about (even though I think for sure it was a penalty). It seems to me that they really need to spell out that rule.


It is just a convention that you can't jump into a tackle but it is so deeply engrained from an early age in all rugby players that I don't think I have ever seen it happen.

They don't like adding new laws so things like this generally come under the sportsmanship laws and it is left at that

I don't think it is inconsistently reffed because it happens so rarely especially at the top level, I think it was just Garces' imperfect English that lead to a bit of head scratching here, but the incident was called correctly an unfortunate, if you are a New Zealand fan, penalty, the timing was out by a second, but it is fine margins at that level


The discussions I've read mention that Shane Williams was a persistent offender (including injuring the tackling player in the process). I admit I don't recall these myself very well. But it seems to me pretty obvious that if refs are instructed to clamp down on any tackles in the air, you need to simultaneously remove any incentive that someone who is about to be tackled may have to jump. Again, although i think the penalty call was right, Sinckler's jump was a bit, well, weird.


Hardly
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby never/ever » 08 Jul 2017, 11:37

What a game! For me as a reasonably impartial observer it is a just result of the series.
I guess all the discussion will be about the accidental offside-call made against the Lions and the 'milking' of scrum-penalties by the All Blacks in the final minutes but I am really surprised about the risk taken to play so close to the sideline with a dropgoal at the mercy of New Zealand...
Still., awesome game by both sides. Puts the shitefest currently going on between the Waratahs and the Jaguares really to shame.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Copehead » 08 Jul 2017, 11:47

Fair result
The Lions were only ahead for about 2 minutes of that series but were also a scratch team playing the best side in the world
So a fair result
If the All Blacks had an international standard goal kicker they'd have won the series without a doubt, but they don't
The pressure got to both sides today, not. A great spectacle big mistakes by both sides but Owen Farrell has ice water in his veins so the draw was never in doubt once he stepped up

Big call at the end for accidental offside rather than deliberate against Ken Owens but in the end it looks about right, the greatest collection of players from the British isles playing the greatest team on the planet and drawing

They are now legends like the 1971 guys, perhaps with one more test they'd have had the same result, who knows, the sides were closely match and advantage seesawed throughout the series
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Copehead » 08 Jul 2017, 11:49

never/ever wrote:What a game! For me as a reasonably impartial observer it is a just result of the series.
I guess all the discussion will be about the accidental offside-call made against the Lions and the 'milking' of scrum-penalties by the All Blacks in the final minutes but I am really surprised about the risk taken to play so close to the sideline with a dropgoal at the mercy of New Zealand...
Still., awesome game by both sides. Puts the shitefest currently going on between the Waratahs and the Jaguares really to shame.


Like times past they don't trust their 10 to kick for goal in the closing stages
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby The Red Heifer » 08 Jul 2017, 14:23

never/ever wrote:What a game! For me as a reasonably impartial observer it is a just result of the series.
I guess all the discussion will be about the accidental offside-call made against the Lions and the 'milking' of scrum-penalties by the All Blacks in the final minutes but I am really surprised about the risk taken to play so close to the sideline with a dropgoal at the mercy of New Zealand...
Still., awesome game by both sides. Puts the shitefest currently going on between the Waratahs and the Jaguares really to shame.


Jaguares undefeated in Australia :lol:

The Waratahs and their lurch from calamity to calamity is just hilarious, even though I know the Brumbies aren't only in the finals because of the absurd conference system. It's embarrassing and they should be ashamed of themselves. Serves that cunt that threatened my wife at the last Waratahs game we went to right.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Mike Boom » 08 Jul 2017, 15:09

Copehead wrote:Fair result
The Lions were only ahead for about 2 minutes of that series but were also a scratch team playing the best side in the world
So a fair result
If the All Blacks had an international standard goal kicker they'd have won the series without a doubt, but they don't
The pressure got to both sides today, not. A great spectacle big mistakes by both sides but Owen Farrell has ice water in his veins so the draw was never in doubt once he stepped up

Big call at the end for accidental offside rather than deliberate against Ken Owens but in the end it looks about right, the greatest collection of players from the British isles playing the greatest team on the planet and drawing

They are now legends like the 1971 guys, perhaps with one more test they'd have had the same result, who knows, the sides were closely match and advantage seesawed throughout the series


Fair result ? From the Lions point of view perhaps, but really, thats a farcical display from the referee, if the penalty to bring it to 12-12 wasn't bad enough (the tackle was clearly around the shoulder/chest) the accidental offside decision was laughable. He actually awarded the penalty then took so long pissing about with the TMO - (who agreed with the penalty call) - that he's convinced himself that its a scrum. The only way thats not offside is if its an accidental forward pass, which it wasn't, and he definitely played at the ball (he caught it for fucks sake) , clear penalty. The All Blacks always had to play well enough and score enough points to take the referee out of the equation and they didn't.

Anyhow well done Lions, I thought they played pretty well, especially defensively, but lets be clear, they are nowhere near the same league as the 1971 team.

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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Mike Boom » 08 Jul 2017, 15:13

Also the All Blacks fans need to up their game, the Lions fans kicked their asses, it sounded like a home game for them. Whatever happened to the Eden Park roar of ye olde times ??

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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Copehead » 08 Jul 2017, 20:29

Mike Boom wrote:
Copehead wrote:Fair result
The Lions were only ahead for about 2 minutes of that series but were also a scratch team playing the best side in the world
So a fair result
If the All Blacks had an international standard goal kicker they'd have won the series without a doubt, but they don't
The pressure got to both sides today, not. A great spectacle big mistakes by both sides but Owen Farrell has ice water in his veins so the draw was never in doubt once he stepped up

Big call at the end for accidental offside rather than deliberate against Ken Owens but in the end it looks about right, the greatest collection of players from the British isles playing the greatest team on the planet and drawing

They are now legends like the 1971 guys, perhaps with one more test they'd have had the same result, who knows, the sides were closely match and advantage seesawed throughout the series


Fair result ? From the Lions point of view perhaps, but really, thats a farcical display from the referee, if the penalty to bring it to 12-12 wasn't bad enough (the tackle was clearly around the shoulder/chest) the accidental offside decision was laughable. He actually awarded the penalty then took so long pissing about with the TMO - (who agreed with the penalty call) - that he's convinced himself that its a scrum. The only way thats not offside is if its an accidental forward pass, which it wasn't, and he definitely played at the ball (he caught it for fucks sake) , clear penalty. The All Blacks always had to play well enough and score enough points to take the referee out of the equation and they didn't.

Anyhow well done Lions, I thought they played pretty well, especially defensively, but lets be clear, they are nowhere near the same league as the 1971 team.


Over a series refs decisions even up, anyone who wants to blame a drawn series on one reff'ing decision, and I am not looking at you here Mike, has issues
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby The Write Profile » 09 Jul 2017, 04:49

A draw is probably a fair result insofar that while the ABs created more opportunities to score, their conversion rate wasn't very high, and as Copehead says, Barrett is not a world-class kick-taker (he is however a brilliant playmaker who was influential in both of the ABs tries). If he had been on song from the tee, then the match could've been feasibly wrapped up not long after half-time. Instead, the Lions kept chipping away at the ABs defence without ever displaying dominance in any of the disciplines. It should be noted that both sides got away with murder, but even allowing for that, the ABs can claim to have had the advantage over the Lions in the scrums, they just didn't do enough with it. Their midfield lacked impetus.

I think this match shows that the ABs are in a rebuilding phase, having peaked around the 2015 Rugby World Cup, and there are a number of combinations that haven't quite been solidified (in particular the midfield), and with some of their more seasoned players, such as Kaino, on the wane. I think a test series against a fired-up England side would prove a difficult proposition for the All Blacks in their current setup. They seem to lack that last bit of indomitable instinct that defines the best AB sides.

I will say the last five minutes were utterly bizarre, the referee seemed to totally lose the plot or confidence. It took the shine off a very absorbing contest. On another note, who would be your players of the series? For me it would be Farrell and Iotje for the Lions, and Retallick and Whitelock for the All Blacks.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Copehead » 09 Jul 2017, 11:30

The Write Profile wrote:A draw is probably a fair result insofar that while the ABs created more opportunities to score, their conversion rate wasn't very high, and as Copehead says, Barrett is not a world-class kick-taker (he is however a brilliant playmaker who was influential in both of the ABs tries). If he had been on song from the tee, then the match could've been feasibly wrapped up not long after half-time. Instead, the Lions kept chipping away at the ABs defence without ever displaying dominance in any of the disciplines. It should be noted that both sides got away with murder, but even allowing for that, the ABs can claim to have had the advantage over the Lions in the scrums, they just didn't do enough with it. Their midfield lacked impetus.

I think this match shows that the ABs are in a rebuilding phase, having peaked around the 2015 Rugby World Cup, and there are a number of combinations that haven't quite been solidified (in particular the midfield), and with some of their more seasoned players, such as Kaino, on the wane. I think a test series against a fired-up England side would prove a difficult proposition for the All Blacks in their current setup. They seem to lack that last bit of indomitable instinct that defines the best AB sides.

I will say the last five minutes were utterly bizarre, the referee seemed to totally lose the plot or confidence. It took the shine off a very absorbing contest. On another note, who would be your players of the series? For me it would be Farrell and Iotje for the Lions, and Retallick and Whitelock for the All Blacks.


I think the AB pack is formidable and probably only a Lions pack could get close, I think their backs are less than the sum of their parts, Barrett is not an all round FH and if an opposing team puts defensive pressure on him so his running and passing game is curtailed he runs out of strings to his bow. His kicking, at 70%, is simply not good enough for international standards and I have said on this very board that one day it would cost the ABs games when they met a team who could match them. Now that has happened.

I think England would give them a decent game as their pack would get close, only 6&7 would be relative weaknesses and England's backs would be better drilled than the Lions and scarcely less formidable. Ireland too have shown that their pack can match the ABs on a good day and that will always give you a chance.

I think the Lions have rubbed some of the sheen of invincibility off the All Blacks and SA and Australia will have taken note and Ireland and England taken heart that they can match them, the gap from the best to the rest appears to have shrunk. You have to match their intensity up front and put huge and relentless defensive pressure on them in defence then the game is a crap shoot and you have a decent chance of a win.

As to the ref; it is simple Sam Warburton got to him and saved the series, first by suggesting he look at the competition in the air again with the TMO to gain time, and when that didn't bear fruit by suggesting accidental offside for Ken Owen. The law - if clear is a player cannot help but touch the ball then it is accidental if he stops an opposition player playing it and play on if he doesn't and he doesn't play the ball; that is a perfectly arguable position to take on the Owens offside, I am not sure it is correct that he had no option but to touch the ball but Warburton did what all great Captains do, and what the ABs under McCaw were masters at, he gave the ref a plausible option not to penalise his team.

Warburton is great at this, he is personable, polite and he talks to refs without antagonising them and never argues, that is one of the reasons Gatland was so desperate to get him into the team, POM is a warrior but he could not manage the ref like that.

In the end the right result was probably reached, neither side deserved to lose and neither side did enough to deserve to win.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby The Write Profile » 10 Jul 2017, 02:54

You're right about Warburton: he seems to have that characteristic that nearly all great international rugby captains posses, namely his ability to read and influence the direction the ref is taking. McCaw and Fitzpatrick were past masters of that, Read just doesn't seem to have that same killer instinct of gamesmanship.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Copehead » 11 Jul 2017, 10:53

Last word on the Ken Owens incident


Regardless of whether you think Read is making an honest attempt to catch the ball, which I personally doubt:

There was a set of stills in the Observer newspaper which showed an interesting take on things that the writer entirely missed; did Williams knock on? He is facing his own line so how can he knock the ball on, it is the momentum from Read's shove in the back that makes it look like it has gone forward off him

Luckily there is writing on the pitch at that point saying "Standard Life" he touches the ball at the i in Life Owens touches it at the d in Standard he touches it behind where it was played

It is all down to Williams' momentum that makes it look like the ball went forward and Owens was offside

This opens up more cans of worms because where does Owens need to be to onside, if the ball went back does he even need to be onside.

The only sure thing is it wasn't a penalty to the ABs, what it was is a mystery to me but apparently there is a forum for refs to discuss these things and the general consensus in the end was - play on

This is one of the reasons why rugby is endlessly fascinating to aficionados and endlessly tedious to the uninitiated :)
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Geezee » 11 Jul 2017, 17:55

Copehead wrote:
Mike Boom wrote:
Copehead wrote:Fair result
The Lions were only ahead for about 2 minutes of that series but were also a scratch team playing the best side in the world
So a fair result
If the All Blacks had an international standard goal kicker they'd have won the series without a doubt, but they don't
The pressure got to both sides today, not. A great spectacle big mistakes by both sides but Owen Farrell has ice water in his veins so the draw was never in doubt once he stepped up

Big call at the end for accidental offside rather than deliberate against Ken Owens but in the end it looks about right, the greatest collection of players from the British isles playing the greatest team on the planet and drawing

They are now legends like the 1971 guys, perhaps with one more test they'd have had the same result, who knows, the sides were closely match and advantage seesawed throughout the series


Fair result ? From the Lions point of view perhaps, but really, thats a farcical display from the referee, if the penalty to bring it to 12-12 wasn't bad enough (the tackle was clearly around the shoulder/chest) the accidental offside decision was laughable. He actually awarded the penalty then took so long pissing about with the TMO - (who agreed with the penalty call) - that he's convinced himself that its a scrum. The only way thats not offside is if its an accidental forward pass, which it wasn't, and he definitely played at the ball (he caught it for fucks sake) , clear penalty. The All Blacks always had to play well enough and score enough points to take the referee out of the equation and they didn't.

Anyhow well done Lions, I thought they played pretty well, especially defensively, but lets be clear, they are nowhere near the same league as the 1971 team.


Over a series refs decisions even up, anyone who wants to blame a drawn series on one reff'ing decision, and I am not looking at you here Mike, has issues


Well exactly - and they really did even up over the series in my opinion, for once - through history I think it's fair to say ABs have had more than their fair share of good luck on refereeing decisions in big games. Nobody can convince me that it was a farcical display from the referee, much less that the decision was laughable - a close call, yes, but in my opinion - and many others, including from the SH - a correct and defensible one.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Geezee » 11 Jul 2017, 18:01

The Write Profile wrote: On another note, who would be your players of the series? For me it would be Farrell and Iotje for the Lions, and Retallick and Whitelock for the All Blacks.


Itoje's rep seems to have skyrocketed, but I thought he was largely absent in his first game and ok in the last game. Far and above anyone else was Warburton, with a shared second place for JD and Murray for me from a Lions perspective. I thought Read was still immense in the ABs and yes Retallick and Whitelock both excellent. In general Read looks like an absolute lunatic but unlike many ABs captains doesn't come across as a wnker.

The turnaround in performance from Farrell in the 2nd half was very impressive- he was atrocious in the first half but really provided that killer instinct in the second (when I guess he was mainly playing fly-half...).

I feel bad for O'Mahoney - I don't want to say that he got showed up at this stage, but he didn't have a great game and was then just unceremoniously shunted out. He's one of my favourite players.

I called 15-15 as the result before the game, didn't put money on it. :evil:
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Mike Boom » 11 Jul 2017, 19:10

- through history I think it's fair to say ABs have had more than their fair share of good luck on refereeing decisions in big games.


The thing is with referees is that in the end it doesn't matter, whatever they rule is it, its history, and it does tend to even out over time, that is true, but it's fun to discuss......its all part and parcel of rugby's rich tapestry, and so it goes on.
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Re: Copehead's RWC thread NOW IN ITS 14TH GREAT YEAR

Postby Mike Boom » 11 Jul 2017, 19:45

I just see the ABs have two games with the Aussies with Wayne Barnes in charge :mrgreen: