The Culture War

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Jimbo » 05 Apr 2021, 03:19

KeithPratt wrote: atomising our identities


Excellent phrase.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 05 Apr 2021, 12:03

KeithPratt wrote:
Deebank wrote:All this would be fucking hilarious if it wasn't being taken very seriously by the UK's dominant right-wing media who have suddenly become ultra-nationalist for some reason.

.


Don't be ridiculous.

If you go to France, you'll find a country that has no qualm with being patriotic. Every town or village will have a flag flying from the local Hotel de Ville.


You have made my point for me.

It is part of French (and the US - and Danish!) culture to have that emphasis on the flag - perhaps it takes the place of royalty in post revolutionary countries. Clearly this is not part of our culture. This government are foisting it upon us for their own spurious culture war-provoking reasons. You and people like you are being used. It won't end well. It will rile up the Sun-reading base but it won't make any converts - just as Starmer waving the flag won't get anyone voting for Labour.

Tell me you don't think this sudden obsession with the flag and pictures of the queen isn't highly suspect. Where was all this pride two years ago? You're not stupid. It's bullshit and you know it.

Sadly we have an entire sect of liberal leftists who seem to think that Britain is a shambles and a joke and that any manifestation of pride in the country through the flag is some sort of fascist aberration.


Wrong that is how Johnson is trying to play it. That is the Culture War! What they actually think is that Brexit / Johnson 'is a shambles and a joke'. They think Britain (a concept that will be gone in a generation anyway) is redeemable otherwise why bother with anything?


... the reality is that the nation-state is probably the most realistically effective way of corralling culture & language into a form that has customs of sorts. We are running the risk of atomising our identities to such a bare, individual level that at some point we will have nothing in common left with each other.


We live in a geographical territory that has a multitude of culture and language differences - something you southern London-based elitists forget much too quickly. I grew up speaking two languages and so did many others. The culture of North West Wales is a least as difference to South East England as that of The Republic Of Ireland (more so than say Dublin perhaps). When you break it down there isn't much that actually unites us. Plenty of abstract things but very little that's tangible.

Oh there's "european" identity I guess.. What is that? What does it mean to be "European"? Easyjet flights, cheap city breaks and mediterranean holidays speaking English in Italy? Most British people can't even be bothered to learn a second language, so I think any idea of that manifesting itself in Britain is laughable.


Fuck! I'd settle for that over Nigel Farage's Kent-centric idea of what Britain ought to be all cricket on the green, warm beer and busty barmaids (wait! That sounds quite nice). Anyway, once again your opinion is formed by your experience in South East England and has very little reality outside that small zone.

I don't know if you've pitched your tent in the other camp yet but like I said to Yomp - with tongue in cheek maybe - you are going to have to pick a side and this time the old left / right divisions are less important. Strikes me that the side you've chosen is anti-intellectual / anti-philosophical / anti-reason... Chose carefully!
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 05 Apr 2021, 12:17

I've been talking about writing a book - 25 years of TEFL - for a few years now. I've got it in me.

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Re: The Culture War

Postby Samoan » 05 Apr 2021, 12:52

Deebank wrote:
Minnie the Minx wrote:Lefties and liberals (that's me!) are some of the worst offenders.


Maybe in the US.

The Union Flag has been 'toxic' in certain quarters in the UK for decades, perhaps since the rise of the NF in the '70s.
I remember Morrissey wrapping himself in the flag at a Finsbury Park gig in the late 80s causing a stir (combined with stuff like Bengali In Platforms and National Front Disco perhaps - that and the skins in the audience).

It's complicated but Starmer trying to 'reclaim' the flag from the 'right' is not a smart move.


What are your thoughts on Stormzy's Union Jack styled stab-proof vest, as designed by Banksy and worn when he headlined Glastonbury 1919 ?

It was nominated for a major design award the following year.
Nonsense to the aggressiveness, I've seen more aggression on the my little pony message board......I mean I was told.

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Re: The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 05 Apr 2021, 13:30

Samoan wrote:
Deebank wrote:
Minnie the Minx wrote:Lefties and liberals (that's me!) are some of the worst offenders.


Maybe in the US.

The Union Flag has been 'toxic' in certain quarters in the UK for decades, perhaps since the rise of the NF in the '70s.
I remember Morrissey wrapping himself in the flag at a Finsbury Park gig in the late 80s causing a stir (combined with stuff like Bengali In Platforms and National Front Disco perhaps - that and the skins in the audience).

It's complicated but Starmer trying to 'reclaim' the flag from the 'right' is not a smart move.


What are your thoughts on Stormzy's Union Jack styled stab-proof vest, as designed by Banksy and worn when he headlined Glastonbury 1919 ?

It was nominated for a major design award the following year.


Them's the vagaries... Stormzy (second generation English of Ghanaian extraction) can wear the flag and all is cool. Morrissey (second generation English of Irish extraction) not so much.

Actually Stormzy is a good demonstration of why this whole thing is nonsense.
The most high-profile supporter of 'flag-cancelling, woke, lefty extremist' Corbyn happily wearing the flag.

All the ersatz outrage, manufactured anger! They think it's a win/win but they're not convincing anyone who wasn't already a card-carrying Gammon-flavoured flag-shagger. It's total bollocks for Daily Express reading morons like black bin liners and 'Winterval' :roll:
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Re: The Culture War

Postby yomptepi » 05 Apr 2021, 14:44

Deebank wrote:
KeithPratt wrote:
Deebank wrote:All this would be fucking hilarious if it wasn't being taken very seriously by the UK's dominant right-wing media who have suddenly become ultra-nationalist for some reason.

.


Don't be ridiculous.

If you go to France, you'll find a country that has no qualm with being patriotic. Every town or village will have a flag flying from the local Hotel de Ville.


You have made my point for me.

It is part of French (and the US - and Danish!) culture to have that emphasis on the flag - perhaps it takes the place of royalty in post revolutionary countries. Clearly this is not part of our culture. This government are foisting it upon us for their own spurious culture war-provoking reasons. You and people like you are being used. It won't end well. It will rile up the Sun-reading base but it won't make any converts - just as Starmer waving the flag won't get anyone voting for Labour.

Tell me you don't think this sudden obsession with the flag and pictures of the queen isn't highly suspect. Where was all this pride two years ago? You're not stupid. It's bullshit and you know it.

Sadly we have an entire sect of liberal leftists who seem to think that Britain is a shambles and a joke and that any manifestation of pride in the country through the flag is some sort of fascist aberration.


Wrong that is how Johnson is trying to play it. That is the Culture War! What they actually think is that Brexit / Johnson 'is a shambles and a joke'. They think Britain (a concept that will be gone in a generation anyway) is redeemable otherwise why bother with anything?


... the reality is that the nation-state is probably the most realistically effective way of corralling culture & language into a form that has customs of sorts. We are running the risk of atomising our identities to such a bare, individual level that at some point we will have nothing in common left with each other.


We live in a geographical territory that has a multitude of culture and language differences - something you southern London-based elitists forget much too quickly. I grew up speaking two languages and so did many others. The culture of North West Wales is a least as difference to South East England as that of The Republic Of Ireland (more so than say Dublin perhaps). When you break it down there isn't much that actually unites us. Plenty of abstract things but very little that's tangible.

Oh there's "european" identity I guess.. What is that? What does it mean to be "European"? Easyjet flights, cheap city breaks and mediterranean holidays speaking English in Italy? Most British people can't even be bothered to learn a second language, so I think any idea of that manifesting itself in Britain is laughable.


Fuck! I'd settle for that over Nigel Farage's Kent-centric idea of what Britain ought to be all cricket on the green, warm beer and busty barmaids (wait! That sounds quite nice). Anyway, once again your opinion is formed by your experience in South East England and has very little reality outside that small zone.

I don't know if you've pitched your tent in the other camp yet but like I said to Yomp - with tongue in cheek maybe - you are going to have to pick a side and this time the old left / right divisions are less important. Strikes me that the side you've chosen is anti-intellectual / anti-philosophical / anti-reason... Chose carefully!



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Re: The Culture War

Postby Samoan » 05 Apr 2021, 15:02

^^ I was thinking that earlier.
Nonsense to the aggressiveness, I've seen more aggression on the my little pony message board......I mean I was told.

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Re: The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 05 Apr 2021, 15:23

yomptepi wrote:
Deebank wrote:
KeithPratt wrote:
Don't be ridiculous.

If you go to France, you'll find a country that has no qualm with being patriotic. Every town or village will have a flag flying from the local Hotel de Ville.


You have made my point for me.

It is part of French (and the US - and Danish!) culture to have that emphasis on the flag - perhaps it takes the place of royalty in post revolutionary countries. Clearly this is not part of our culture. This government are foisting it upon us for their own spurious culture war-provoking reasons. You and people like you are being used. It won't end well. It will rile up the Sun-reading base but it won't make any converts - just as Starmer waving the flag won't get anyone voting for Labour.

Tell me you don't think this sudden obsession with the flag and pictures of the queen isn't highly suspect. Where was all this pride two years ago? You're not stupid. It's bullshit and you know it.

Sadly we have an entire sect of liberal leftists who seem to think that Britain is a shambles and a joke and that any manifestation of pride in the country through the flag is some sort of fascist aberration.


Wrong that is how Johnson is trying to play it. That is the Culture War! What they actually think is that Brexit / Johnson 'is a shambles and a joke'. They think Britain (a concept that will be gone in a generation anyway) is redeemable otherwise why bother with anything?


... the reality is that the nation-state is probably the most realistically effective way of corralling culture & language into a form that has customs of sorts. We are running the risk of atomising our identities to such a bare, individual level that at some point we will have nothing in common left with each other.


We live in a geographical territory that has a multitude of culture and language differences - something you southern London-based elitists forget much too quickly. I grew up speaking two languages and so did many others. The culture of North West Wales is a least as difference to South East England as that of The Republic Of Ireland (more so than say Dublin perhaps). When you break it down there isn't much that actually unites us. Plenty of abstract things but very little that's tangible.

Oh there's "european" identity I guess.. What is that? What does it mean to be "European"? Easyjet flights, cheap city breaks and mediterranean holidays speaking English in Italy? Most British people can't even be bothered to learn a second language, so I think any idea of that manifesting itself in Britain is laughable.


Fuck! I'd settle for that over Nigel Farage's Kent-centric idea of what Britain ought to be all cricket on the green, warm beer and busty barmaids (wait! That sounds quite nice). Anyway, once again your opinion is formed by your experience in South East England and has very little reality outside that small zone.

I don't know if you've pitched your tent in the other camp yet but like I said to Yomp - with tongue in cheek maybe - you are going to have to pick a side and this time the old left / right divisions are less important. Strikes me that the side you've chosen is anti-intellectual / anti-philosophical / anti-reason... Chose carefully!



You are Copehead and I claim my five pounds.


I can't be. I don't like silly midlife crisis cars and the Manics.
I've been talking about writing a book - 25 years of TEFL - for a few years now. I've got it in me.

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Re: The Culture War

Postby KeithPratt » 05 Apr 2021, 17:04

I don't buy your "we aren't a flag-waving culture" argument.

Image

Note the 1966 World Cup Final had no St George's Flags.

Image

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Re: The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 05 Apr 2021, 17:18

KeithPratt wrote:I don't buy your "we aren't a flag-waving culture" argument.

Image

Note the 1966 World Cup Final had no St George's Flags.

Image


Of course. Read Mitchell’s column. Special occasions etc.
No one’s saying We never wave a flag ever.I remember that old bloke in the Union Jack suit and top hat at England games. At some stage he had to rebrand to England flag outfits - sometime in the nineties.

There has been this deliberate and recent manipulation by the PM and his stooges though to make an issue of it.

Did anyone ever give a shit whether the BBC’s annual report had Union jacks featured in it?

Do you care if public buildings only fly the flag on special days? Of course you don’t because you’re not an arsehole.

It is being weaponised like the poppy arms race we have every November.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Samoan » 05 Apr 2021, 18:45

Deebank wrote:.....


Take the recent flag-waving cobblers in the UK. It should be a laugh riot (and is). All of a sudden, any government minister appears on TV - from a home office / spare room - adorned with pics of Her Maj and Union Flags . Six months ago this wasn't the case was it? We don't generally go in for all this flag waving shit in the UK. It's really not very British.

.....

.......


Going back to your OP, to be candid with you I make a point of never watching any televised news on any channel at any time of day. I haven't done so for probably the past 9 months. I look at the BBC on-line news page - national and local news - and that is all.
I've unpinned The Guardian icon from my task bar as there's such an all-prevailing mood of horror and doom. I don't need to click on that sh*t.
It's not good for my soul or spirit to do otherwise so what you've written about above aren't scenarios I can relate to.
Nonsense to the aggressiveness, I've seen more aggression on the my little pony message board......I mean I was told.

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Re: The Culture War

Postby GoogaMooga » 05 Apr 2021, 19:55

I think it is a little dangerous to shut out the news, I for one would like to know which way the wind is blowing. I don't really follow MSM, but I like to be informed, one way or another.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 05 Apr 2021, 20:14

I get that. I only really like to watch The news when the tories are getting a kicking.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Diamond Dog » 05 Apr 2021, 21:38

Image

Just in case we've not all got the message - the PM's Press Conference earlier today.
I have put the ignorant, inflammatory bore on ignore.

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Re: The Culture War

Postby Samoan » 06 Apr 2021, 08:59

GoogaMooga wrote:I think it is a little dangerous to shut out the news, I for one would like to know which way the wind is blowing. I don't really follow MSM, but I like to be informed, one way or another.

Point taken but it's only the televised news I avoid, as mentioned further up the thread. I particularly don't want to hear political spiel.
I've friends who regularly find themselves yelling at the TV at 11 pm and chucking the remote control at it.
Nonsense to the aggressiveness, I've seen more aggression on the my little pony message board......I mean I was told.

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Re: The Culture War

Postby KeithPratt » 06 Apr 2021, 10:01

I really don't see any issue with flags.

If anything, one could argue that it's to enforce "The Union" particularly with Scottish Independence sentiment being particularly prevalent.

When I was growing up, pictures of the Queen and Union Jack flags in public places were entirely normal. I belonged to a Church affiliated Scout Group and once a month, during Church parade, I would carry the Union Jack flag. So I really don't see how an issue of flag-waving is being "weaponised" by the government. To me it's a reassertion of a traditional sentiment.

As I said earlier, nationalist sentiment is important to harness to a certain extent, particularly for people lower down the economic scale. Why was there such an outbreak of working-class St George flag sentiment during 90s and 00s? Because, for whatever reason, these people felt that their Englishness, for want of a better phrase, was being attacked. The issue with trying to deny people some sort of identity is that when you attack it, most of the time they then seek to double down on what is being attacked and claim it for themselves alone. Up the economic scale, people are much more fluid with the concept of identity and are happier to accommodate many identities. But, for those with little, it is often the case that pride in where one comes from is important. For nearly 30 years or so, the "English" identity has been ignored, shamed and belittled. "Little Englander" in particular comes to mind. This sort of thing backfires spectacularly, just as we can see in America where Trump harnessed the Middle America vote for his own purposes.

The Conservative party, which has always accommodated many perspectives in a broad church, is able to absorb the more nationalist right-wing perspective. If you have a look at the actual numbers of more extreme right-wing organisations over the last decade, they have plummeted. Most of them number 50 - 100 people at the very most. Britain First in particular saw most of its members join the Tory party in 2019 after Boris won.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ned-tories

Is it better that these people are part of a much larger political party than striking out on their own? I'd say the former. Give them a voice within an existing structure rather than create havoc on their own. You could argue just the same thing for the Labour party with far-left mentalists. The only issue is when a far-left/right mentalist manages to get near the leadership, which is what happened with Labour and Corbyn. I think the chances of that happening in the Conservative party are far slimmer. The Tories have not had an explicitly nationalist leader in decades and their current leader is a Liberal in all but name.

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Re: The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 06 Apr 2021, 10:05

Diamond Dog wrote:Image

Just in case we've not all got the message - the PM's Press Conference earlier today.


Image
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Diamond Dog » 06 Apr 2021, 10:12

KeithPratt wrote:
When I was growing up, pictures of the Queen and Union Jack flags in public places were entirely normal. I belonged to a Church affiliated Scout Group and once a month, during Church parade, I would carry the Union Jack flag. So I really don't see how an issue of flag-waving is being "weaponised" by the government. To me it's a reassertion of a traditional sentiment.




Which must be why the Tory Govt of the past ten years have been so keen to get the Union Flag in on every press conference and TV appearance they appeared on?

You can call it what you like Toby - "traditional sentiment" or whatever.

You can object to the term 'weaponisation'.

Doesn't matter. Anyone who is able to think lucidly and cogently can see, and is aware of the reasons for, the flag being thrust in front of every screen on every occasion possible in the past month or so.

And it's absolutely nothing to do with 'patriotism'.
I have put the ignorant, inflammatory bore on ignore.

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Re: The Culture War

Postby Jimbly » 06 Apr 2021, 12:31

That Tory guy when having the chance to question the Head of the BBC and given all the issues around the BBC at the moment. The most important issue for him and his constituents was the number of Union Flags on the cover of the annual report. Nothing about what was in the report. Just how many flags.

Being told that the flag flies above BBC HQ wasn't important. Just the mantra of how many flags on the report.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby The Prof » 06 Apr 2021, 12:47

The Union flag used to be the emblem of far right. Extremists on the lunatic fringe. Now that's all changed. Errr....