The Culture War

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 03 Apr 2021, 17:32

It pervades all.

Ruthlessly manipulated and exploited by Trump (to his ultimate cost) and now by Johnson and I can see why. It is a 'bear trap' for lefties / liberals.

Take the recent flag-waving cobblers in the UK. It should be a laugh riot (and is). All of a sudden, any government minister appears on TV - from a home office / spare room - adorned with pics of Her Maj and Union Flags . Six months ago this wasn't the case was it? We don't generally go in for all this flag waving shit in the UK. It's really not very British.

When the BBC's Charlie Stayt quipped that the housing secretary Robert Jenrick's flag which dominated the background when he was interviewed, was not regulation size it kicked off a row. For some reason his co-host Naga Munchetty had to issue an apology - she seemed to cop most of the flack for 'sneering'. She also 'liked' a twitter post that included the term 'flag-shaggers' :lol: Funny how the female, ethnic presenter attracted the most ire, hmm? :?

All this would be fucking hilarious if it wasn't being taken very seriously by the UK's dominant right-wing media who have suddenly become ultra-nationalist for some reason.

The govt are now acting all offended because public buildings aren't flying the flag - like they haven't been in charge for a decade, pricks.

Anyway: The Culture War, it pervades everything, discuss...
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Minnie the Minx » 03 Apr 2021, 17:43

Lefties and liberals (that's me!) are some of the worst offenders.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby The Prof » 03 Apr 2021, 18:39

You've got a Yorkshire flag in Texas

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Re: The Culture War

Postby GoogaMooga » 03 Apr 2021, 18:39

Not nationalist per se, but the Danes do have a flag fetish. We've got the oldest flag in the world, and we use every occasion to wave it: flag days, birthdays, welcoming parties at Kastrup Airport, anniversaries, any old excuse. Foreigners wonder what the hell is going on.

Image

Image

Legend has it that our national flag fell from Heaven after a victory near Tallin, Estonia, in 1219:

Image
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Jimbo » 04 Apr 2021, 01:22

My son tells me that apparently it's a micro-agression when a Japanese tells me I use chopsticks well.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby never/ever » 04 Apr 2021, 02:18

Image

Wasn't that the picture that rendered this whole discussion moot?
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Re: The Culture War

Postby yomptepi » 04 Apr 2021, 09:51

Deebank wrote: Naga Munchetty had to issue an apology - she seemed to cop most of the flack for 'sneering'. She also 'liked' a twitter post that included the term 'flag-shaggers' :lol: Funny how the female, ethnic presenter attracted the most ire, hmm? :?



All she does is sneer. Dreadful woman. I don't know how she hangs on to the job.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 04 Apr 2021, 10:16

yomptepi wrote:
Deebank wrote: Naga Munchetty had to issue an apology - she seemed to cop most of the flack for 'sneering'. She also 'liked' a twitter post that included the term 'flag-shaggers' :lol: Funny how the female, ethnic presenter attracted the most ire, hmm? :?



All she does is sneer. Dreadful woman. I don't know how she hangs on to the job.


You miss the point Yomp. It was Stayt that made the 'sneery' comment yet it was the dark skinned lady (actually a very competent and likeable journalist) that drew the flak. Besides since when have we as a nation needed to feature our flag so prominently like some insecure fucking tinpot third world right wing shithole dictatorship? The correct response to an incompetent prick like Jenrick shagging the flag is withering contempt rather than gentle ribbing!

You need to decide which side you're on!





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Re: The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 04 Apr 2021, 10:55

GoogaMooga wrote:Not nationalist per se, but the Danes do have a flag fetish. We've got the oldest flag in the world, and we use every occasion to wave it: flag days, birthdays, welcoming parties at Kastrup Airport, anniversaries, any old excuse. Foreigners wonder what the hell is going on.

Image

Image

Legend has it that our national flag fell from Heaven after a victory near Tallin, Estonia, in 1219:

Image


It's all about context.
Obviously no country is 100% innocent but some flags represent a more extensive back-catalogue of outrage, exploitation and genocide than others. On that score I reckon Denmark is a long way from the Premier League.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 04 Apr 2021, 11:07

Minnie the Minx wrote:Lefties and liberals (that's me!) are some of the worst offenders.


Maybe in the US.

The Union Flag has been 'toxic' in certain quarters in the UK for decades, perhaps since the rise of the NF in the '70s.
I remember Morrissey wrapping himself in the flag at a Finsbury Park gig in the late 80s causing a stir (combined with stuff like Bengali In Platforms and National Front Disco perhaps - that and the skins in the audience).

It's complicated but Starmer trying to 'reclaim' the flag from the 'right' is not a smart move.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby GoogaMooga » 04 Apr 2021, 11:39

Deebank wrote:It's all about context.
Obviously no country is 100% innocent but some flags represent a more extensive back-catalogue of outrage, exploitation and genocide than others. On that score I reckon Denmark is a long way from the Premier League.


Good point, Deebank, I am glad you see it that way. I realize the British have more mixed feelings about the Union Jack, but think of all the good that Britain/UK has done for the world as well, perhaps more than any other country in the world. It is good to apologize and atone, but you can also be too apologetic.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 04 Apr 2021, 11:48

GoogaMooga wrote:
Deebank wrote:It's all about context.
Obviously no country is 100% innocent but some flags represent a more extensive back-catalogue of outrage, exploitation and genocide than others. On that score I reckon Denmark is a long way from the Premier League.


Good point, Deebank, I am glad you see it that way. I realize the British have more mixed feelings about the Union Jack, but think of all the good that Britain/UK has done for the world as well, perhaps more than any other country in the world. It is good to apologize and atone, but you can also be too apologetic.


You're right.
I suppose it's about acknowledging the bad while not always droning-on about the good ad nauseum.

I would argue that all the good things Britain and its empire achieved came from 'progressives' who were almost always at odds with 'conservatives'.
I'm willing to concede that there may be some exceptions :)
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Minnie the Minx » 04 Apr 2021, 13:24

Deebank wrote:
Minnie the Minx wrote:Lefties and liberals (that's me!) are some of the worst offenders.


Maybe in the US.

The Union Flag has been 'toxic' in certain quarters in the UK for decades, perhaps since the rise of the NF in the '70s.
I remember Morrissey wrapping himself in the flag at a Finsbury Park gig in the late 80s causing a stir (combined with stuff like Bengali In Platforms and National Front Disco perhaps - that and the skins in the audience).

It's complicated but Starmer trying to 'reclaim' the flag from the 'right' is not a smart move.



I thought the thread was about ‘ The Culture War’ - not the nuances of flags- so now I’m lost.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Jock » 04 Apr 2021, 14:14

yomptepi wrote:
Deebank wrote: Naga Munchetty had to issue an apology - she seemed to cop most of the flack for 'sneering'. She also 'liked' a twitter post that included the term 'flag-shaggers' :lol: Funny how the female, ethnic presenter attracted the most ire, hmm? :?



All she does is sneer. Dreadful woman. I don't know how she hangs on to the job.

FFS Yomp. Do you like anyone. Nothing wrong wi the woman
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Deebank » 04 Apr 2021, 14:58

Minnie the Minx wrote:
Deebank wrote:
Minnie the Minx wrote:Lefties and liberals (that's me!) are some of the worst offenders.


Maybe in the US.

The Union Flag has been 'toxic' in certain quarters in the UK for decades, perhaps since the rise of the NF in the '70s.
I remember Morrissey wrapping himself in the flag at a Finsbury Park gig in the late 80s causing a stir (combined with stuff like Bengali In Platforms and National Front Disco perhaps - that and the skins in the audience).

It's complicated but Starmer trying to 'reclaim' the flag from the 'right' is not a smart move.



I thought the thread was about ‘ The Culture War’ - not the nuances of flags- so now I’m lost.


Well, it is but I assumed you were talking about flag-waving. Apologies.
I've been talking about writing a book - 25 years of TEFL - for a few years now. I've got it in me.

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Re: The Culture War

Postby yomptepi » 04 Apr 2021, 19:43

Jock wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
Deebank wrote: Naga Munchetty had to issue an apology - she seemed to cop most of the flack for 'sneering'. She also 'liked' a twitter post that included the term 'flag-shaggers' :lol: Funny how the female, ethnic presenter attracted the most ire, hmm? :?



All she does is sneer. Dreadful woman. I don't know how she hangs on to the job.

FFS Yomp. Do you like anyone. Nothing wrong wi the woman


I cannot stand her, or the kind of presenting she represents. Over familiar, sarky, sneering and generally in your face. I prefer my journalism presented to me as an intelligent, interested party, rather than a dribbling half wit. The same goes for those fucktards on News at ten.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby KeithPratt » 04 Apr 2021, 20:59

In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. 
They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the 
general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident 
thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals 
are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always 
felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman 
and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse 
racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably 
true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of 
standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a 
poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping 
away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes 
squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always 
anti-British.”


George Orwell in "England, Your England"

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Re: The Culture War

Postby KeithPratt » 04 Apr 2021, 21:34

Deebank wrote:All this would be fucking hilarious if it wasn't being taken very seriously by the UK's dominant right-wing media who have suddenly become ultra-nationalist for some reason.

.


Don't be ridiculous.

If you go to France, you'll find a country that has no qualm with being patriotic. Every town or village will have a flag flying from the local Hotel de Ville. The French have a healthy admiration for thinking that their country is superior. Sometimes they're right - France is a magnificent country, just like Britain is too. Sometimes they're wrong, just as some things about Britain are plainly inferior.

It doesn't mean that the French are going to invade anywhere, just like Britain isn't either.

Sadly we have an entire sect of liberal leftists who seem to think that Britain is a shambles and a joke and that any manifestation of pride in the country through the flag is some sort of fascist aberration, despite there being virtually no evidence of any fascist sentiment from this country at any time. This attitude has probably cost the Labour party any real chance of election victory in the next twenty years unless the Tories irrevocably melt down. It's strange that these people feel shame in the Union Jack and yet give their full support to the nationalists in Scotland, who are essentially after exactly the same thing that they purport to hate so much.

Many people feel pride in where they come from. I don't think it's unhealthy to support that. Yes, there's a certain misplaced aspect to that, like saying "I'm English and so was Shakespeare!" as if there's some sort of equivalence to it. I feel that nationalism is an imperfect construct that has recognisable value. Because of the horrors of WW2, we tend to shy away from nationalism as a positive sentiment, but the reality is that the nation-state is probably the most realistically effective way of corralling culture & language into a form that has customs of sorts. We are running the risk of atomising our identities to such a bare, individual level that at some point we will have nothing in common left with each other.

Oh there's "european" identity I guess.. What is that? What does it mean to be "European"? Easyjet flights, cheap city breaks and mediterranean holidays speaking English in Italy? Most British people can't even be bothered to learn a second language, so I think any idea of that manifesting itself in Britain is laughable.
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Re: The Culture War

Postby Dr. Baron » 04 Apr 2021, 21:42

Pass the suet pudding!
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Re: The Culture War

Postby GoogaMooga » 04 Apr 2021, 22:04

There is a clear difference between being national conservative and nationalist. The former merely expresses love of one's own country and background, which is an essential part of most peoples' identities, and the latter, nationalism, is the sentiment that can lead to war and expansionism. I think it is important to make that distinction and to insist on it.
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