BLM, Trump... and all that

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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toomanyhatz
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby toomanyhatz » 03 Jun 2020, 22:49

A shorter way to put it:

"All Lives Matter" goes without saying.

"Black Lives Matter" does not. THAT, in a nutshell, is the problem.

Flower wrote:I wish that the world would stop using "race cards" .. maybe I'm one of very few who sees people as humans and that all humans have equal rights.


And this - sorry, there's no polite way to say this - is the very definition of 'white privilege.'

The translation I read into this is "my first and most important instinct here is to make sure everyone acknowledges MY feelings."

A friend of mine who, a few years ago, was a conservative Republican, has been REALLY impressing me with her willingness to grow and learn. She posted a meme that's been going around that also says it pretty successfully:

"You keep saying it's horrible that an innocent black man was killed, but destroying property has to stop. Try saying it's horrible that property is being destroyed, but killing innocent black men has to stop. You're prioritizing the wrong part."

Likewise embedding the concern for Floyd within concerns for the policemen's 'fair trial' and the damage done by the protests. Is there some long tradition of policemen killing unarmed suspects ON CAMERA and then being given unfairly long sentences for it that I don't know about?
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby mentalist (slight return) » 03 Jun 2020, 23:50

The All Lives Matter thing is a textbook bad faith argument. Of course all lives matter. That's the point of Black Lives Matter movement, they seem to matter less.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 04 Jun 2020, 00:17

Hatz ~

Blacks aren't the only minority. Believe in it or not, we are one world and all matter. I don't believe that I would feel differently if I was Asian or whatever.

As for the police getting a fair trial. How can they find an impartial jury? So more than likely he/they will get off scott free and end up in witness protection. I hope that I'm wrong but.. ???? It is one of the down sides of social media.

Agree or disagree, now in the middle of a pandemic with Trump as POTUS isn't a wise time to protest but I could be wrong.

I need no one to acknowledge or agree with my feelings. Just would be nice if my words weren't twisted but please yourself.

Btw ~ I oppose the death penalty .
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby toomanyhatz » 04 Jun 2020, 00:42

Flower wrote:Hatz ~

Blacks aren't the only minority.


OK - how is that relevant to the discussion here?

a wise time to protest


I dispute that there's any such thing.

It's certainly a time in which it would be easier and safer to NOT protest, which probably makes it more important to do so.

Just would be nice if my words weren't twisted but please yourself.


Twisted how? I quoted you directly. I'm not trying to pile on here, just thinking it might be helpful to have another perspective. But you seem determined to fight your corner rather than taking the words of several different people here - who don't often agree on much - and trying to figure out why they are united in the idea that you are misunderstanding something very basic. If you can't prioritize listening and trying to understand over defending yourself, even among these reasonably patient folks who share the same privilege you do, how much hope is there that you'll understand it or relate to it coming from people for whom it's actually a matter of life and death?
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 04 Jun 2020, 02:31

Hatz ~

Think what pleases you. If we have a failure to communicate .. so be it.

I don't have a magic wand to make the world better but can be kind to people and hope that they pay it forward. I guess that it's wrong thinking on some people's part but it works for me.

I didn't realize that we were only discussing black minorities, sorry.

I've never had a "privileged" life and am an minority but not the one that you all are discussing here. Sorry, it was unwise to share my thoughts and feelings. I don't have to surrender them if anyone disagrees with me and I don't expect others to surrender their views either.

Sorry again for not knowing the about "All Lives Matter" it just seemed like a better name but that's just one opinion.





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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby kath » 04 Jun 2020, 03:28

Flower wrote:Hatz ~

Think what pleases you. If we have a failure to communicate .. so be it.

I don't have a magic wand to make the world better but can be kind to people and hope that they pay it forward. I guess that it's wrong thinking on some people's part but it works for me.

I didn't realize that we were only discussing black minorities, sorry.

I've never had a "privileged" life and am an minority but not the one that you all are discussing here. Sorry, it was unwise to share my thoughts and feelings. I don't have to surrender them if anyone disagrees with me and I don't expect others to surrender their views either.

Sorry again for not knowing the about "All Lives Matter" it just seemed like a better name but that's just one opinion.





`


ya know, i had a semi-rough go of it, growin up as an outspoken, independent, strong-willed girl in the 70s. do you know what girls like me got? a certain smackdown, by everyone in multiple power systems, but especially by cops.

my two closest friends were raped by cops. they were messed up for life by it. one of em died more than a decade ago. accidental overdose. how did i not get raped? three words: blind fucquin luck.

but i've been thrown into the side of a cop car, thrown on the ground, had my shirt ripped off for a "drug search", etc. i spent over a year with narcs harrassing me, following me everywhere i went, harrassing everybody who had the nerve to come to my house (their cars and persons searched, before harrassment was even a word.) it sure as hell wasn't a legal defense. i went to court, twice, to serve as witness to police brutality, the worst case with another close friend who got her nose broken by a cop becuz she tried to step in between said cop beatin the bloody crap outta her boyfriend, which was why she was in court, for his sake. he was put in the hospital. he had long hair, see. that was the reason. guess who got laughed outta court?

and yet... i never~~not once~~ feared that when i got pulled over by a cop, i'd be shot fucquin dead becuz of the way i looked. even when i got thrown around by cops, i never~~not once~~was afraid a bunch of em would surround me and pin me down while one of em put his knee on my neck til i choked to death. i never~~nope, not once~~had to teach my kids how to respond as carefully as possible to cop intimidation so they would be *less* targeted or victimized just for the way they looked.

that is the definition of privileged. i know i was.

and so were you.

if you can't get that~~yer automatic privilege~~you will never get what's happening.

that's on you, to get or not get.

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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 04 Jun 2020, 06:36

Flower,

I’m going to start by apologizing for assuming that you understood the baggage that “all lives matter” has here in the U.S. It occurs to me that you might not live here, so maybe some part of the disconnect here is down to that.

I also see that you come from a minority population. As a straight white American Jewish man, I accept that you might have some lived experience that I don’t. So I’m open to hearing any perspective you have to offer on that front.

But I DO want to say that what I think we are all picking up on in your posts, is a kind of inflexibility of perspective. A sense that you are saying, ‘this is how I see it, so this is what I’m going to hold to’ - and I just think that’s a REALLY unhelpful attitude to bring to any discussion about race.

Simply said - until we all are willing to surrender the right to have our personal judgment be the arbiter of what is and is not ‘the right way to be/think/act’ - we’re just not going to be able to understand each other.

In every post here where someone has attempted to get you to see another perspective, you turned it around to say that they weren’t understanding you (even when everyone here clearly is taking pains to do so). Maybe you legitimately feel misunderstood, but your defensiveness isn’t helping.

Consider letting it go. Nobody here is invested in making you the bad person. We’re just trying to get you to let go of your perspective long enough to consider others.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Neige » 04 Jun 2020, 06:43

Flower wrote:My opinion is that even if peaceful protests get slightly out of hand that Trump will react in a bad way.


Now this is a fear we all share... :(
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 04 Jun 2020, 10:19

Kath ~ I'm sorry for the grief you that and your loved ones encountered. You are making assumptions about my life. My private life is private and not without grief. Believe it or not, I post here to relieve the burden of everyday life. I guess that I failed. Oh well.

Davey ~ One can express their views but one can't tell another person how to think or feel. We all have had different live experiences that shape us and it is up to us to reveal pieces of ourselves or not.

To all ~ Once again .. I never heard of All LIVES MATTER until after I started posting in this thread but to me, all lives, including animals matter .. a lot. Sorry if I didn't pick up on it and apologize once again. I'm not going to make myself (or you all) crazy in attempting to explain myself and hitting a brick wall.

Keep safe in all ways possible .. I've moved on.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Dr. Baron » 04 Jun 2020, 13:39

Deebank wrote:Is this a genuime turning point?

I heard on the Beeb this morning that one poll suggests that 75% of Americans support the demonstrations which is very encouraging if true.
People are comparing the current situation with 1968, but in '68 Martin Luther King was a hate figure for most Americans - this perhaps surriding fact from a pundit on the Beeb yesterday. In that respect it looks like the US is in a better place this time. If there was a single (living) figurehead for the movement perhaps it would be a different story.

The downside of course is that there is a psycho in the White House who as we speak is moving 700 members of the 82nd Airborne closer to Washington . It always ends well when you send in the paras against civilians, just ask the people of Derry and Fallujah. Those incidents pretty much kick-started the Provisional IRA and the Iraqi insurgency respectively.


It could be and probably is a tipping point in terms of consciousness. I think most white people have to now understand more vividly that they walk through a different world, just because of their skin color and that they cannot truly understand much more than that. For so long, many of us assumed that the gains for legal equality of the 50s, 60s, and 70s were the closing chapter in our horrible history of racial inequity, and that everyone was now good and settled. But now that we are living in a world where there is increasing video evidence of how things really go down, it is obvious that those years should really represent the end of an officially racist state.

But even after this vivid picture of gratuitous, fatal police brutality, police all over the country carry on night after night, reacting with overwhelming force against apparently peaceful protesters and causing violence where there was none. You could compile a very depressing highlight reel of police overreaction from the past few days, wantonly provoking peaceful protest for no apparent reason with chemical agents and (my favorite) "less lethal" force. And this, too, should cause a change in consciousness when it comes to our militarized police culture.

Shifts in consciousness notwithstanding, actual change in police practices and culture will take much longer due to their very strong position through their culture and unions and the decentralized nature of law enforcement in this country. Cops are as dug into our polarized culture as anyone else, probably more. And ever since the Warren Court, there has been a sustained backlash against actionable civil rights for the citizens, while police power has been continually protected and buttressed over decades. Even if there is sweeping change in the Congress and White House, they have little legal power to affect local police and police culture. And guess what would happen if they tried? Clarence Thomas, Chief Justice Roberts, Samuel Alito, Brett Kavanaugh, and Neil Gorsuch get the last word. Change in the rank and file police departments has to be led at the state level and come from each and every city or county government and be shepherded by police leadership.

And so even though we are going through generational change in awareness and understanding that we all must, at a bare minimum, be able to say and mean Black Lives Matter and understand why that is important and what it means, the legal and cultural walls protecting and even encouraging police abuses will take a concerted effort and a very long time to dissemble.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby kath » 04 Jun 2020, 13:46

Flower wrote:Kath ~ I'm sorry for the grief you that and your loved ones encountered. You are making assumptions about my life. My private life is private and not without grief. Believe it or not, I post here to relieve the burden of everyday life. I guess that I failed. Oh well.


i know you've said you've moved on, but i don't get this response at all. so i'm gonna add a disclaimer, and you can ignore it with a right good will.

i appreciate the sympathy, i always do, but i wanna make one thing clear: i didn't use my personal example to get it and certainly not to disavow any grief you have faced in yer life. everybody faces it. this is a debate about BLM and white privilege. my point was simply that yes, i have faced discrimination, mistreatment and violence becuz i'm female, but none of that is as bad as it would've been had i been born in america with different colored skin. that is a very simple truth. another truth: i don't see myself as a victim, of, well, anything. okay, maybe of my own bad decisions involving my vices, that kinda crap, mwhaha. i've had a good life, filled with love. i've had so many opportunities, so much support. compared to so many, i've had an easy, privileged life.

the assumptions i have made about yer life are based on what you've posted in this thread. if you think you have faced the same kind of systematic, oppressive and violent treatment that blacks have, you would need to back that up in a debate. if you aren't comfortable doin that, fine. that's yer choice. but no one's gonna buy that you have without it. yer not making any kinda convincing argument.

none of it has anything to do with why you personally post or what you use this board for. (??) this is a debate about BLM and white privilege.

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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Copehead » 04 Jun 2020, 13:51

Flower wrote:
My opinion is that even if peaceful protests get slightly out of hand that Trump will react in a bad way.



he's already reacted in a bad way.

this is a "beaten wife" style argument, don't stand up to him he'll only hit me
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 04 Jun 2020, 13:59

Kath ~ Let's end this here and now. All that I said in the beginning is that basically, I didn't think that BLM was the best or most positive name for this movement. I"m in the minority on that and it's fine. I've never painted myself as a victim, nor am I without empathy. I do admit to ignorance of ALM and have apologized many times over. I'm not the bad guy here.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby kath » 04 Jun 2020, 14:12

Flower wrote:Kath ~ Let's end this here and now. All that I said in the beginning is that basically, I didn't think that BLM was the best or most positive name for this movement. I"m in the minority on that and it's fine. I've never painted myself as a victim, nor am I without empathy. I do admit to ignorance of ALM and have apologized many times over. I'm not the bad guy here.


where exactly did i paint you as a bad guy? my last post clarified why i used my personal example~~for a larger point~~and i said that in a debate, yer lack of backup doesn't make for a convincing argument.

that's painting you as a bad guy??

in yer above post and the snippet of yers i quoted in my last post, i'm thinkin yer not having any trouble painting yerself as a victim. geezuss christ. if you think this is bad treatment around here, yer BCB memory must be very short indeed... and very one-sided.

(waiting for some post about how i insulted yer BCB memory, etcetcetc...)

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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 04 Jun 2020, 14:17

kath wrote:
(waiting for some post about how i insulted yer BCB memory, etcetcetc...)


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Not going to happen.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 04 Jun 2020, 16:05

Flower said:
Davey ~ One can express their views but one can't tell another person how to think or feel. We all have had different live experiences that shape us and it is up to us to reveal pieces of ourselves or not.


Not important what you choose to reveal or what you choose to keep private.

What IS important is how doggedly we insist on maintaining our own blinders. I can’t speak for others here, but I think that accounts for much of the negative attention you are getting on this thread - and my impression is... you get a lot of this kind of attention here at BCB in general.

Almost every bit of real religious and philosophical wisdom boils down to something along the lines of, ‘walk a mile in the other’s shoes.’ Surrendering perspective is the toughest thing in the world - and whatever other good definitions of white privilege that have been offered on this thread, the one that I would like to add is the privilege to feel like your perspective matters. That you ultimately get to decide what right and wrong is, because you are a free-thinking person whose opinion ultimately is very, very important.

That’s the privilege trap we all fall into. Lack of humility. It is self-reinforcing, because the more we insist on the primacy of our perspective, the more we get to flatter ourselves for our own rugged individualism.

But what if we all backed off the idea that we are the judge and jury? What if we let the people who are acting in ways we don’t understand explain their perspective on their own terms? And then, what if we resisted pronouncing judgement as much as possible?
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Belle Lettre » 04 Jun 2020, 16:22

Baron, your post really makes clear the layers and embeddedness there are to contend with. I'm more dejected than ever!
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Dr. Baron » 04 Jun 2020, 17:25

Belle Lettre wrote:Baron, your post really makes clear the layers and embeddedness there are to contend with. I'm more dejected than ever!


Sorry, I'm always doing that!

The good news is that I think the scale of these protests and the diversity of the protestors is unprecedented in most of our lifetimes so people will be fired up and they can push for changes to state law quickly where there are responsive legislatures. Even here, our very right wing governor has suggested that could be on the table. More people "get it" or are at least open to issues of privilege and police abuses. Trump is in worse political shape than he's ever been in (which also makes him more dangerous, but that's another issue). There has already been significant progress in criminal justice issues over the past decade. And there is a lot of research about police violence and policy proposals ready to go.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 04 Jun 2020, 17:29

Davey ~ I have no idea why you see blinders where none exist. Are you that bored that you need to keep beating a dead horse? I am bewildered as why you believe that you know me, what I'm thinking, how I act around people in real life .. etc. The BLM and ALM aren't in the media much in Canada. Add to that that I'm not on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram .. etc. I apologized half a dozen times for what I felt was misunderstood information.

Yes, I freely admit that I made a statement without doing deep research. Sorry once again. I don't want to play your game. Paint me a racist or whatever makes you happy but people who really know me will just laugh in your face.

Get a hobby.

P.S. ~ I don't find you clever. Condescending? Yes! Clever? No! For the record, I am far from"thick or dense, just not interested. Can you understand that I'm not interested in what you think?

P.P.S. My father can beat up your father. :lol:
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Dr. Baron » 04 Jun 2020, 17:55

Dr. Baron wrote:Shifts in consciousness notwithstanding, actual change in police practices and culture will take much longer due to their very strong position through their culture and unions and the decentralized nature of law enforcement in this country. Cops are as dug into our polarized culture as anyone else, probably more. And ever since the Warren Court, there has been a sustained backlash against actionable civil rights for the citizens, while police power has been continually protected and buttressed over decades. Even if there is sweeping change in the Congress and White House, they have little legal power to affect local police and police culture. And guess what would happen if they tried? Clarence Thomas, Chief Justice Roberts, Samuel Alito, Brett Kavanaugh, and Neil Gorsuch get the last word. Change in the rank and file police departments has to be led at the state level and come from each and every city or county government and be shepherded by police leadership.

. . . the legal and cultural walls protecting and even encouraging police abuses will take a concerted effort and a very long time to dissemble.


The MPLS Union Boss has been pretty brazen, and they often are in the face of calls for reform.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minn ... SKBN23B2LL
Last edited by Dr. Baron on 04 Jun 2020, 17:57, edited 1 time in total.
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