BLM, Trump... and all that

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
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Deebank
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BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Deebank » 03 Jun 2020, 08:53

Is this a genuime turning point?

I heard on the Beeb this morning that one poll suggests that 75% of Americans support the demonstrations which is very encouraging if true.
People are comparing the current situation with 1968, but in '68 Martin Luther King was a hate figure for most Americans - this perhaps surriding fact from a pundit on the Beeb yesterday. In that respect it looks like the US is in a better place this time. If there was a single (living) figurehead for the movement perhaps it would be a different story.

The downside of course is that there is a psycho in the White House who as we speak is moving 700 members of the 82nd Airborne closer to Washington . It always ends well when you send in the paras against civilians, just ask the people of Derry and Fallujah. Those incidents pretty much kick-started the Provisional IRA and the Iraqi insurgency respectively.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 03 Jun 2020, 13:28

All lives matter.

It's difficult for me to support protests in the middle of a pandemic where social distancing rules aren't being followed. What happened to George Floyd is tragic and shouldn't have happened to anyone. There is a down side to the protests and social media coverage as it has made it impossible for the accused to receive a fair trial. I wonder if the police officers involved will go into witness protection? I could be wrong and they could admit to their crimes. I don't know.

As for MLK, my second cousin, Marcia, heard him speak in Los Angeles and was so moved that she became one of the original Freedom Riders. I'm not against peaceful protests but as I stated, I believe that this can backfire in this case.

As for Trump, he's a nightmare that doesn't go away.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Dr. Baron » 03 Jun 2020, 14:07

Flower wrote:All lives matter.

It's difficult for me to support protests in the middle of a pandemic where social distancing rules aren't being followed. What happened to George Floyd is tragic and shouldn't have happened to anyone.


I can't believe I'm reading this here. I'm going to have to step away for awhile.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 03 Jun 2020, 14:19

The cops were wrong, wrong, WRONG.

I can't believe that the store employees would call 911 over a pack of cigarettes being paid for with a bad bill. Why not just take down Floyd's license plate and call the non emergency number? This should never have happened.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 03 Jun 2020, 14:35

Good that we agree that much. But that isn’t enough.

Flower - I will be polite about the use of “All Lives Matter” for just this one post. Surely someone has already explained to you that “Black Lives Matter” is not arguing that black lives matter more, or are the only lives that matter. Surely someone has explained to you that the point of such a slogan is to address the hard truth that the lives of black people have been treated forever as if they matter less than those of white people.

Surely someone has told you that when you start off any discussion on this topic with the assertion that, “all lives matter” - you’ve essentially announced to the room that you will be refusing to acknowledge the perspectives and lived experiences of black people.

I am politely spelling the above out, just in the unlikely case that you’ve somehow made it this far in life without someone else already politely spelling it out for you. Now before you decide whether you agree or disagree - consider for a moment that your opinion (and mine - and that of all white people) isn’t all that meaningful on this subject. We are either willing to be taught, or we are the problem.

So that’s your one polite response. Please consider any further words on this topic very carefully.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby The Prof » 03 Jun 2020, 14:48

Well said.

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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Rayge » 03 Jun 2020, 14:50

The Prof wrote:Well said.

Yes, indeed.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby kath » 03 Jun 2020, 14:53

Rayge wrote:
The Prof wrote:Well said.

Yes, indeed.


thirded.

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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 03 Jun 2020, 17:00

Okay .. I see that I've been misunderstood. Yes, all lives matter and we are ALL EQUAL. Saying that "black lives matter" seems to imply that they matter LESS and are less equal but that they should be given consideration. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks that we are all EQUAL and no life matters more or less regardless of color, race or creed.

I wish that the world would stop using "race cards" .. maybe I'm one of very few who sees people as humans and that all humans have equal rights.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Minnie the Minx » 03 Jun 2020, 17:13

Well, I think the earth’s core has been reached now so you can probably put your shovel down.
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Flower wrote:I just did a google search.

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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 03 Jun 2020, 17:21

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Good that we agree that much. But that isn’t enough.

Flower - I will be polite about the use of “All Lives Matter” for just this one post. Surely someone has already explained to you that “Black Lives Matter” is not arguing that black lives matter more, or are the only lives that matter. Surely someone has explained to you that the point of such a slogan is to address the hard truth that the lives of black people have been treated forever as if they matter less than those of white people.

Surely someone has told you that when you start off any discussion on this topic with the assertion that, “all lives matter” - you’ve essentially announced to the room that you will be refusing to acknowledge the perspectives and lived experiences of black people.

I am politely spelling the above out, just in the unlikely case that you’ve somehow made it this far in life without someone else already politely spelling it out for you. Now before you decide whether you agree or disagree - consider for a moment that your opinion (and mine - and that of all white people) isn’t all that meaningful on this subject. We are either willing to be taught, or we are the problem.

So that’s your one polite response. Please consider any further words on this topic very carefully.


Perhaps no one has explained it to you that talking down to people is rude,

Perhaps no one has explained it to you that we are all in this together.

Perhaps no one has explained it to you that if we act in a positive and safe manner such as donating to George Floyd's family and causes that he embraced, that his name and memory will live on for a long time with positive peaceful results.

Did no one explain to you that we at some point will have a second wave of this pandemic and need to keep social distancing or that looting is taking place at some of these "peaceful" protests and that both good and bad cops lives are in danger.

But you can explain to me why a police officer who's had 18 complaints is still on the street or was until last week.

We have to go forward in a positive manner and treat every one equally because we are all equal or history will repeat itself or did someone already explain that to you?
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 03 Jun 2020, 18:23

Due respect Flower, but if you don’t like being talked down to - you’re going to have to raise your game. As it currently stands, down is the only available direction to address your arguments.

Do you honestly believe that making donations in George Floyd’s name is an adequate response to what happened to him - or to Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Freddie Gray Jr., Walter Scott, Oscar Grant III, Philando Castile, Sandra Bland, Tamir Rice, Botham Jean, Atatiana Jefferson and Ahmaud Arbery? Or any of the many, many more dead without the benefit of video?

When you say that all lives are equal - do you include those people? Did their lives matter?

You correctly state that a cop with 18 complaints shouldn’t be on the street. But the point is - he WAS on the street. Our system does not value Black lives enough to assure that he (and those like him) are not.

The system needs to change - and non-white people have tried to get us to take action every which way for forever. They’ve marched peacefully. They’ve peacefully protested (see Colin Kaepernick) only to be scolded for doing it in places and at times that we didn’t like. They’ve tried being quiet. They tried being better. They tried being non-threatening. Nothing works.

So they stop believing in our laws. Laws that enshrine their status as lesser-than presumably mean less to them. Disturbing an order that doesn’t protect them presumably isn’t a thing to worry about from their perspective. So what else is left to them but to scare the hell out of us by disturbing our order? What other method have we left them?

I doubt that any of the folks who initially took to the street (as opposed to the opportunists and political instigators who took advantage of the moment for their own purposes) wanted to endanger themselves or each other by breaking the distancing guidelines we’ve all been living under. But I think it was simply intolerable to see video of a man being so clearly murdered - without any real plausible deniability about the police being scared or accidentally going over the line.

If you were a parent who had to actually coach your child on what to wear, and what to say when confronted by a police officer in order to not end up being killed - perhaps you’d have a stronger reaction too.

All lives DO matter. But some lives clearly matter less in the eyes of the law - and THAT is what has to be acknowledged and changed. Fuck your donation to causes in George Floyd’s name.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 03 Jun 2020, 19:03

Davey ~ Everyone on this planet matters equally. I can't change the injustices with a snap of a finger but we can each do something. Being proactive in just the way that we treat our fellow humans is a step forward. I treat people with the respect that I want for myself.

The present social unrest is scary and I pray that we've left the race riots and burning cities behind long ago. Your anger at my seeing everyone as being equal is not my problem. Yes there is racial profiling and issues abound on many fronts.

Yes, things have to change .. You are preaching to the choir. You also seem to want to not understand that I wish to resolve things with positive solutions. I see crimes against humans that need to be resolved.

Your assumptions on my intelligence or lack of, views or lack of, feelings or lack of .. etc ... is laughable and leaves no reason to continue as I don't take on other people's anger. No one has to agree with me or even respect my opinions but that works both ways.

Enjoy your anger and misconceptions of me.

P.S. I only debate issues, nothing personal.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 03 Jun 2020, 19:49

Point-missing 101.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 03 Jun 2020, 19:54

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:Point-missing 101.


YES! You missed the point that ALL LIVES DO MATTER and always have mattered. Perhaps if I wrote that All lives SHOULD Matter, you would've understood. No big deal.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 03 Jun 2020, 20:46

Someone else waste their time on this. I haven’t the energy.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Neige » 03 Jun 2020, 21:04

I'll try, with my limited abilities in English.

Flower, you are talking about what YOU believe in, which is fine.

It's not being condescending when Davey tries to explain that it's not about anybody's BELIEFS, but about everyday REAL LIFE of people who are still routinely treated differently because of the colour of their skin.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Six String » 03 Jun 2020, 21:24

Neige wrote:I'll try, with my limited abilities in English.

Flower, you are talking about what YOU believe in, which is fine.

It's not being condescending when Davey tries to explain that it's not about anybody's BELIEFS, but about everyday REAL LIFE of people who are still routinely treated differently because of the colour of their skin.


Nice job Felix!

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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 03 Jun 2020, 21:36

Neige wrote:I'll try, with my limited abilities in English.

Flower, you are talking about what YOU believe in, which is fine.

It's not being condescending when Davey tries to explain that it's not about anybody's BELIEFS, but about everyday REAL LIFE of people who are still routinely treated differently because of the colour of their skin.


Your English is far from limited. All I've been attempting to convey is that in my opinion, that all this sudden BLM sort of says that Blacks didn't matter before and even hints that they aren't equal In some way. That expression seems a bit of a put down but it might just be me. I haven't spoken to Black friends or neighbors about this issue. So, it might just be my illogical thought.

If anyone had inquired what I meant by All LIVES MATTER, I would've explained my feelings.

My opinion is that even if peaceful protests get slightly out of hand that Trump will react in a bad way.

I have no problems regarding reading comprehension.
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Re: BLM, Trump... and all that

Postby Flower » 03 Jun 2020, 21:52

I just did a google search. I had no idea that there was a group or backlash called "All Lives Matter" .. it just seemed a logical thought to me. I apologize for my ignorance on this issue. I never meant to offend anyone and really think that we ALL count and are important. :oops:
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