Mainland Chinese oppression: Today, Hong Kong. Tomrorow Taiwan and the South China Sea

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
Sam Stone
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 30 May 2020, 10:32

Jimbo wrote:
"Would say"? I think your friends would say that at the very least they've heard of CIA/US involvement in the HK demonstration/riots. Not that the HKers don't have beefs but the US and its poodles are in a cold war with China right now. Switch on any MSM channel, left or right and it's China this and China that. Hardly hear "Russia" or "Putin" these days. The US is exploiting your friends' misery to score points against China.



Do you know anything about HK, Jimbo?

Have you ever been there?

Read a book about it's history?

Or are you - in your default colossally insensitive/sociopathic style - just exploiting
others' misfortune in your endless sad sack quest to make yourself look like
you know something the rest of us don't?

You show pictures of people like Joshua Wong with various US figures
in an attempt to "prove" top secret top-level discussions aimed to destabilising Xi
and the other butchers of Beijing.

As usual, you fail to provide any context that might derail the agenda you are trying
to push.

Given that the world media had anointed JW as the reluctant figurehead of the peaceful
umbrella protests of 2014, why wouldn't such people be queueing up to meet him?

While not yet old enough to vote, JW managed to alert and inspire thousands of kids of his age
to take an interest in China's shameful theft of their democratic rights and settled futures.

In an attempt to shut JW up and prevent him from standing for public office, China has continued to
harass him and his family. In 2017, they even had him sentenced to eight months in gaol for unlawful
assembly - a chilling precursor of what is happening now, the charge of unlawful assembly.

Sneer at the likes of JW all you like, J, but at least he has the courage of his convictions.

You on the other hand are just a grubby little nobody who's just waiting for another tragedy to
come along so you can make yourself look important while gorging on the victims' misery.

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Jimbo
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Jimbo » 30 May 2020, 11:53

Sam Stone wrote: People were saying much the same about Hitler in the 1930s.


I knew you'd be the one to bring up Hitler.

And yes I've been to HK but my 3 or 4 days there counts for very little in an argument. I read Clavell's Taipan and Paul Theroux's Kowloon Tong and the Flashman where he goes to China. I don't know nothing.

And below the pictures of Wong and the Ukrainian Nazis is a link (unopened by you, natch!) which puts some meat on the bones which essentially say the US is spreading back slaps and cash around to support the protest and ultimately to stick it in China's eye. And that is not like you or I supporting a protest it is another nation, the real evil empire, the butcher of Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Vietnam, the big Kahungah, the USA!!!!!!!
You don't have to be smart to see how fucked up this shit is. Jimmy Dore

Sam Stone
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 30 May 2020, 12:19

Jimbo wrote:
Sam Stone wrote:

People were saying much the same about Hitler in the 1930s.



I knew you'd be the one to bring up Hitler.

And yes I've been to HK but my 3 or 4 days there counts for very little in an argument. I read Clavell's Taipan and Paul Theroux's Kowloon Tong and the Flashman where he goes to China. I don't know nothing.

And below the pictures of Wong and the Ukrainian Nazis is a link (unopened by you, natch!) which puts some meat on the bones which essentially say the US is spreading back slaps and cash around to support the protest and ultimately to stick it in China's eye.


You can't see any comparison between China's well publicised suppression of its Tibetan, Eighur Moslem and now
Hong Kong minorities as well as its attempted landgrab of mineral-rich islands hundreds of miles from the Nazis
1930s invasion and subjugation of minorities and invasion of countries like Czechoslovakia and Poland?

You expect us to believe that a picture of some T-shirt wearing Russian from the Christmas Cracker joke
that is Consortium "News" is evidence that the demonstrators are attempting to destabilize China
by joining forces with Putin's thugs? Only a few posts before you were insisting it was the Yanks.

Your "knowledge" of HK is based on a 3 or 4 day package tour, a hopelessly cliched James Clavell potboiler,
a dated Paula Thorax travel book and "the Flashman where he goes to China".

Yet here you are seizing on a topic you yourself admit you know little about and almost certainly care
even less for in an attempt to push your crackpot conspiracy theories.

Is there no lower limit to your rock-bottom gormlessness?

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Jimbo
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Jimbo » 01 Jun 2020, 02:18

It is a report like this which shapes my not knee-jerky, not unfavorable opinion of China. Discussed here is the National Endowment for Democracy (NED)/US shaped view of human rights in Xinjiang (Uigers) and Hong Kong.

You don't have to be smart to see how fucked up this shit is. Jimmy Dore

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trans-chigley express
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby trans-chigley express » 01 Jun 2020, 05:33

toomanyhatz wrote:Free does not equal good or universal. I'd need more information than that.


Indeed. If China's Health Care system was so damn good then why do mainlanders pour over the border to take advantage of HK's health system?

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trans-chigley express
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby trans-chigley express » 01 Jun 2020, 05:44

Geezee wrote: (although Hong Kong's healthcare system itself is only marginally better than China's).

You're kidding? HK's health care system is excellent.

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Jimbo
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Jimbo » 01 Jun 2020, 07:19

At the rate China is progressing economically - and socially - in time China very well may have the best medical system in the world.

Pre-covid, Japan was reaping scads of cash from Chinese tourists who bought up everything. Drug stores were wiped out of inventory from Chinese who coveted Japanese cosmetics. That said to me that these average seeming Chinese people had money to spend and that Chinese authorities didn't fret over foreign goods nor foreign influence over Chinese consumers. And the Japanese appreciated the Chinese guests. If ever a healing was needed it was between Japan and China and this shopping diplomacy was surely a boon.
You don't have to be smart to see how fucked up this shit is. Jimmy Dore

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toomanyhatz
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby toomanyhatz » 01 Jun 2020, 09:38

People with money to spend (meaning they also have the money to afford travel out of the country) are not typical Chinese.

The population of China is over a billion! Ten percent of that population - in a good year - will travel abroad. That's over 100 million - a hell of a lot of people. Someone who knows better can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm betting that ain't primarily the middle class that's doing the traveling.

The idea that it is indicative in any way of their medical care is amusing Jimbo logic, but as a factless ascertation, is unconvincing to say the least.
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby KeithPratt » 01 Jun 2020, 09:50

The Chinese New Year is now the biggest "aviation event" in the world - surpassing the summer holidays in Europe.

That's pretty significant.

Sam Stone
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 01 Jun 2020, 10:14

KeithPratt wrote:The Chinese New Year is now the biggest "aviation event" in the world - surpassing the summer holidays in Europe.

That's pretty significant.


There is also a huge migration to Hong Kong in the two-week Golden period around Chinese National DAy on October 1.

Annual gambling revenues on the euphemistically named "gaming" resorts on Macau's Kotai Strip now exceed those of Las Vegas

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 01 Jun 2020, 10:23

Jimbo wrote:It is a report like this which shapes my not knee-jerky, not unfavorable opinion of China. Discussed here is the National Endowment for Democracy (NED)/US shaped view of human rights in Xinjiang (Uigers) and Hong Kong.

[youtube][/youtube]


Quelle surprise!

The "Truther" whose nugatory knowledge of HK and the PRC comes from a 3-day package tour, a copy of James Clavell's laughably dated Taipan and the "Flashman one where he went to China" now starts peddling propaganda from the communist party-funded CTGN channel.

If you really want to see what China is doing to its Moslem Eighur minority and can't access BBC's terrifying three-part China a New World Order on iplayer here are a few excerpts from YouTube.

If this is how they treat their own people, god help any one else who falls into their clutches.

Where are my children?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRS5cdc ... h2&index=2


Life in e-education camps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDGD896 ... Ah1jIy3vh2

Embedding is proving a bit of a problem at the mo, please go straight to YT if interested

Sam Stone
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 01 Jun 2020, 10:34

Jimbo wrote:
At the rate China is progressing economically - and socially - in time China very well may have the best medical system in the world.



In time, you might accidentally post something rooted in fact but I'm not holding my breath.

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby fange » 01 Jun 2020, 10:56

trans-chigley express wrote:
Geezee wrote: (although Hong Kong's healthcare system itself is only marginally better than China's).

You're kidding? HK's health care system is excellent.

I'm not sure where Geezee got his evidence from, but i don't think it's from having lived in HK or he wouldn't say something like that.
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Sam Stone
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 03 Jun 2020, 16:41

Interesting to see what - if anything - will happen/be allowed to happen in HK tomorrow as the annual June 4 gasthering in Victoria has been cancelled bnecause of concerns over Covid despite lockdown pretty much having been lifted several weeks back

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trans-chigley express
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby trans-chigley express » 06 Jun 2020, 00:08

The annual June 4th vigil (in memory of the 1989 Tiannamen Square massacre) was banned this year due to "Coronavirus ONLY...no other reason" according to the Government. People went ahead regardless and peacefully held the vigil. Police stood around and kept an eye on things but they never stopped or arrested anyone at least.

Also this week a law was passed making it a criminal offense to "insult" the Chinese National Anthem. It's not clear exactly what sort of insult would land you with a hefty fine and imprisonment.

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 14 Jun 2020, 16:09

Interesting article re the HK protestors and Trump

From today's Guardian (the real one, not the rubbish one Jimbo posts from)


How the killing of George Floyd exposed Hong Kong activists' uneasy relationship with Donald Trump
The US president may be the pro-democracy movement’s biggest backer, but some protesters feel they are being used
Helen Davidson


Sun 14 Jun 2020 03.21 BST

The lack of a Black Lives Matter protest in Hong Kong has focused attention on activists’ relationship with Trump. Photograph: Migeul Candela/EPA
Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement has struggled to reconcile the support it has received from Donald Trump with his administration’s brutal crackdown on protests over the police killing of George Floyd.

In the past few weeks, unprecedented Black Lives Matter protests, renewed by the killing of George Floyd by a white police officer, have spread to every US state and to countries across the world, regardless of pandemic restrictions.

But in Hong Kong, where year-long mass protests share many similarities with those in the US, there was no mass rally.


How Hong Kong caught fire: the story of a radical uprising

An attempt at organising a BLM event on Sunday failed after pro-democracy protesters expressed concern about whether it had police approval and if attendees would be safe, given the history of police brutality. The organisers, who were not connected to Hong Kong’s movement, said the police had been “amazing” and supported their BLM rally but could produce no approval.

Eventually it was cancelled, with organisers accusing people of being “agitators” and “pushing their own agenda”.

A second attempt at a BLM rally is under way, hoping to address and move on from last week’s failure.

The controversy comes amid a complicated debate about the commonalities and differences of the two protests, and whether Hong Kong demonstrators were reluctant to join in pushing back against their biggest single ally – Trump.


Both the US and Hong Kong protests are decentralised human rights movements with a huge focus on police brutality, with rallies marked by police attacks on the press. Both have enormous international support.

But the most powerful supporter of Hong Kong’s protests is also arguably the BLM movement’s biggest detractor – Trump.

A protester in her mid-20s, who asked to be referred to as M, said many Hong Kong protesters knew of and disagreed with the US president’s domestic policies but some were reluctant to criticise him.

“They know to some level that they are being used – but after years of silence, any support from an American president feels like success,” M said.

Hong Kong’s movement contains a spectrum of political views, and Trump has at times been hailed as an ally for his tough stance on China. When the US government passed the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act last year, demonstrations held placards giving thanks to the president and his government.

Members of the Hong Kong movement who spoke to the Guardian said the reasons for Hongkongers’ muted response to the US protests were complicated.

People in Hong Kong have been understandably focused on the immediate threats to pro-democracy activism, as China seeks to increase its control.

They said many Hongkongers weren’t aware of the history and politics of the BLM movement, or US politics, and were reluctant to comment. The city also had to have a reckoning with its own racism, others said. Some also said support for Trump was largely predicated on the fact that he and the Hong Kong protesters shared a common opponent – the Chinese Communist party – and that protesters felt the president and other Republicans had been the most visible in their support for them.

‘The US government did punish those police’

When the US protests started, Hong Kong internet users shared tips with Americans on how to protect yourself in a crowd, how to defuse tear gas canisters, how to “be water” when overwhelmed by riot police. Many identified strongly with the movement.

But when coverage began highlighting violence, looting and arson, as Trump railed against the protesters and police used teargas, pepper spray and excessive force, people with competing ideologies, including the Chinese government tripped over themselves in a tangled web of rhetoric and accusations. There were those who supported Trump and the Hong Kong protesters, or those supported China and US protesters, those who supported the protesters but no leaders, or any other combination of views.

Some quibbled over death and arrest tolls, others engaged in contorted assessments of causes and tactics, or amplified the views of far-right agitators.

Online, some shared the view of student activist Sunny Cheung, who told the Guardian that he obviously condemned the police brutality, but that Americans had mechanisms such as free elections through which to hold officers and governments accountable.

“Police brutality exists and we condemn that, but at the same time the government did punish those police,” he said. “We can never see that in Hong Kong.”

Some Hongkongers distanced their movements from the destruction of the US protests by saying Hong Kong protesters didn’t loot, appearing to suggest there was more justification in the US police crackdowns, while also ignoring that there had been some vandalism and violence in Hong Kong.

Looting and indiscriminate destruction of private property ... are mere distractions from what’s really at stake: systemic racism
Jeffrey Ngo, Demosisto
When far-right figure Avi Yememi, an Israeli-born Australian anti-Muslim agitator, seized on the destruction and said it was “disgraceful” to compare the two protests, Hong Kong pro-democracy activist and media tycoon, Jimmy Lai, thanked him for “speaking up for HKers”.

Protester M said there was a strong international narrative that Hongkongers were “model protesters”.

“There’s a desire to be like ‘hey we’re not like them! We’re still good! If you support them, why not support us? We don’t break rules!’,” she said.

Responding to calls for a statement on the US protests, Joshua Wong, the high-profile young activist and leader of the Demosisto party, said he stood with Black Lives Matter and against police brutality “wherever it may be”.

His Washington-based Demosisto colleague, Jeffrey Ngo, said he acknowledged the Hong Kong movement was imperfect and there was a “small but vocal” group of far-right pro-Trump people in the movement who celebrated his rhetoric.

“Others may be reluctant to speak up because they see such imperfections of the US movement as looting and the indiscriminate destruction of private property,” Ngo said. “But I believe these are mere distractions from what’s really at stake: systemic racism.”

Trump ‘hard to stomach’

In a widely read op-ed on Thursday last week, leftwing literary site Lausan warned Hong Kong people that Trump was no friend, and that the movement’s relationship with the US political right was increasingly untenable.

“Just as these politicians don’t care about black lives, they don’t care about the lives of Hongkongers either,” it said. “Instead, their support for the Hong Kong movement has always been contingent on their broader geopolitical goals and is as fickle as the whims of US foreign policy.

“In truth, US support for Hong Kong was never meant to benefit the Hong Kong people. The city was only ever a way for the US to punish the CCP [Chinese Communist party], even if it meant sacrificing it.”

M said people largely knew this but were desperate.

“It’s important to ask whether we are conflating ‘supporting Trump’ with ‘supporting America’, or ‘supporting whoever will stand with us and do something but unfortunately it’s only Trump, so Trump it is’.

“They’ve begged for help from the world for years – the 2019 protests are hardly the first time Hong Kong has tried to fight.”


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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 18 Jun 2020, 11:29

When their troops aren't squaring off with India's, the PRC's rulers are ramming through their draconian new security laws as fast as
inhumanly possible

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... egislation

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Geezee » 20 Jun 2020, 09:15

fange wrote:
trans-chigley express wrote:
Geezee wrote: (although Hong Kong's healthcare system itself is only marginally better than China's).

You're kidding? HK's health care system is excellent.

I'm not sure where Geezee got his evidence from, but i don't think it's from having lived in HK or he wouldn't say something like that.


It's true that I have not lived there, but my job is to compare healthcare systems.
Most modern medicines still do not reach Hong Kong. The Hospital Authority has an extremely restrictive (not to mention corrupt) system to provide access for eg. the latest cancer medicines. HK has good hospital care (as does much of China) but the actual treatments are still effectively those of an emerging market.
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 20 Jun 2020, 15:57

Geezee wrote:
fange wrote:
trans-chigley express wrote:You're kidding? HK's health care system is excellent.

I'm not sure where Geezee got his evidence from, but i don't think it's from having lived in HK or he wouldn't say something like that.


It's true that I have not lived there, but my job is to compare healthcare systems.
Most modern medicines still do not reach Hong Kong. The Hospital Authority has an extremely restrictive (not to mention corrupt) system to provide access for eg. the latest cancer medicines. HK has good hospital care (as does much of China) but the actual treatments are still effectively those of an emerging market.


Again, that was not my experience. Nor does it seem to have been the experience of the two other current/former HK residents here.

The facilities and standard of care I received in Queen Mary Hospital in Pokfulam after I broke my leg could not have been better.

Anyway think we are all getting side tracked from the main issue here.

Namely, what a bunch of cunts Xi and his cronies are.


If what they are doing with the National Security Laws in HK wasn't bad enough, they are now seriously pushing their luck on the Indian border

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trans-chigley express
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby trans-chigley express » 26 Jun 2020, 09:45

Sam Stone wrote:
Geezee wrote:
fange wrote:I'm not sure where Geezee got his evidence from, but i don't think it's from having lived in HK or he wouldn't say something like that.


It's true that I have not lived there, but my job is to compare healthcare systems.
Most modern medicines still do not reach Hong Kong. The Hospital Authority has an extremely restrictive (not to mention corrupt) system to provide access for eg. the latest cancer medicines. HK has good hospital care (as does much of China) but the actual treatments are still effectively those of an emerging market.


Again, that was not my experience. Nor does it seem to have been the experience of the two other current/former HK residents here.


I think Geezee's info is plain wrong to be honest (or perhaps muddled with the rest of China as his description tallies closely with the realities of China`s healthcare) . The healthcare system here is every bit the equal to UK. My sister-in-law is a senior doctor in a Government Hospital (and has been successfully treated for cancer with the latest medicines) and she disagrees strongly with GZ's assessment including the allegations of corruption.
Last edited by trans-chigley express on 26 Jun 2020, 10:46, edited 1 time in total.