Mainland Chinese oppression: Today, Hong Kong. Tomrorow Taiwan and the South China Sea

in reality, all of this has been a total load of old bollocks
Sam Stone
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Mainland Chinese oppression: Today, Hong Kong. Tomrorow Taiwan and the South China Sea

Postby Sam Stone » 28 May 2020, 15:27

The new normal HK style

Image

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-co ... d-of-death

Shameful that, despite being a co-signatory, the UK has done fuck all to stop the butchers of Beijing's shitting all over a 50-year treaty that supposedly "guaranteed" Hongkongers' democrcatic rights until 2047.

Given what Xi and his fellow gangsters in the Chinese Communist Party have done in HK, are planning to do in Taiwan and already working hard to do to the Philippines, Vietnam and their other neighbours across the South China Sea, it's high time the world took some kind of stand against these fuckers.

While military intervention ain't going to happen, the country's economy is in the doldrums and we could start by hitting them with punitive trade sanctions.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-co ... d-of-death
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Jimbo
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Jimbo » 28 May 2020, 15:56

Article 23 of the Basic Law: The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall enact laws on its own to prohibit any act of treason, secession, sedition, subversion against the Central People's Government, or theft of state secrets, to prohibit foreign political organizations or bodies from conducting political activities in the Region, and to prohibit political organizations or bodies of the Region from establishing ties with foreign political organizations or bodies.[1]


Image


Go ahead and pretend you don't understand the rub here.
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 28 May 2020, 17:39

No, Jimbo, aside from the fact that you are leaping on another issue to try and draw attention to your sociopathic worldview,
I don't understand the "rub" you are trying to get at at all.

Given your lamentable past track record of turning everything into an enormous conspiracy, what you seem to be suggesting is
that the demonstrations in HK are being orchestrated by some shadowy organisation. The ultimate aim of said shadowy
organisation being to either destabilise China and/or to provoke them into some kind of military action.

The real "rub" (such as it is) is in the "be like water" ethos and methodology of the protests and protestors. As shown in the pic
at the top of the page, the real tragedy here is that these people are youngsters aged from 15 to about 25. Most of the latter
group live at home because they will never be able to afford to buy a flat in HK as property prices have been driven to absurd levels
by wealthy friends/backers of Xi.

If you knew anything about the reasons for the protests, who was risking their liberty and one day very soon
their lives and why they were risking them, you wouldn't be shitting all over the board with your usual me-me-me sophistry.
`
Why don't you fuck off and crawl back into the dark, damp dirt under whatever stone it is trolls like you call home.

EDITED at 7.40pm
Last edited by Sam Stone on 28 May 2020, 19:40, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby toomanyhatz » 28 May 2020, 19:11

Please explain to us, Jimbo, using *your* words rather than those of your "sources," exactly what this "rub" is of which you speak?
Jimbo wrote:My point is to save the world from WWIII.

Jimbo wrote:This bullshit is horseshit.

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Jimbo » 28 May 2020, 19:47

toomanyhatz wrote:Please explain to us, Jimbo, using *your* words rather than those of your "sources," exactly what this "rub" is of which you speak?


The US is sponsoring and encouraging the protests in HK ala Maidan in Ukraine. The Chinese government under the Basic Law I cited has a right to clamp down on these outside agitators.
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Geezee » 28 May 2020, 20:23

There's no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of the protesters are domestic. They have, ultimately, something very basic to protest against. That said, my sympathies are divided here. Hong Kong's "special status" is an imperial legacy. Hong Kong did not start to exist in 1842, and it's fairly insulting to even imply that. I see no political or economic reason why Hong Kong should not belong to China, any more than I see no political or economic reason for Taiwan not to fully belong to China, or any other relic of the imperial era to go back to its original country. That said, I have huge sympathy for the local population, who of course have grown up accustomed to something entirely different, and they are faced with an ugly, dictatorial ruler.
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Jimbo » 28 May 2020, 20:44

Geezee wrote: an ugly, dictatorial ruler.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I kinda think Xi resembles Winnie the Poo. Cute not ugly.

As for whether is a dictator, he'd say he isn't and that he has a legal right to be the leader - for life. And no matter what he is or how he got there I think he is doing a pretty good job of running the most populous, and now, amazingly, one of the wealthiest countries in the world. The Hong Kong protests make no sense. The Chinese have it made! Jobs, health care, Chinese food. It's the US and our poodles who are jealous of China's success, and dangerously so.

But Fuery sees this again with panicked propaganda-ized eyes. China bad. Protesters good. He's wrong again. He's always wrong. Mr. Wrong. Hm. Sounds Chinese. :?
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Geezee » 28 May 2020, 21:03

The Hong Kong protests make a huge amount of sense, given that their fundamental rights are being withdrawn. And no, China does not have a very good health care system (and certainly not a universal one) so god knows why you would bring it up. Probably because you have no clue what you are talking about as usual and make it up as you go along.
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Jimbo » 28 May 2020, 21:06

Geezee wrote:The Hong Kong protests make a huge amount of sense, given that their fundamental rights are being withdrawn. And no, China does not have a very good health care system (and certainly not a universal one) so god knows why you would bring it up. Probably because you have no clue what you are talking about as usual and make it up as you go along.


Sorry, Hatz, but I need my sources.

Is medical care free in China?
China does have free public healthcare which is under the country's social insurance plan. The healthcare system provides basic coverage for the majority of the native population and, in most cases, expats as well.Apr 15, 2020
Google search
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby toomanyhatz » 29 May 2020, 01:04

Free does not equal good or universal. I'd need more information than that.

As for as China's right to clamp down on 'outside agitators,' with 7.5 million people of various nationalities (also a google search, it does not seem so clear cut. By China's own definition it is not under the same rule as mainland China.

Nor do I think Fuckity McFuckface's name on a sign constitutes American sponsorship. The signs are asking him to - one faction, I presume, of many. He, as usual, doesn't give a flying fuck.
Jimbo wrote:My point is to save the world from WWIII.

Jimbo wrote:This bullshit is horseshit.

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Jimbo » 29 May 2020, 01:35

toomanyhatz wrote: Nor do I think Fuckity McFuckface's name on a sign constitutes American sponsorship.


You know there is more than just a sign don't you? We are sponsoring the protests.
... various civil society groups in Hong Kong had been accepting millions of dollars in support from the National Endowment for Democracy, the notorious coup-cultivating appendage of the State Department that is funded primarily by Congress. https://consortiumnews.com/2020/05/26/p ... -betrayal/


Hate to tell you but this current version of US aggression towards China began with Obama's "Pivot To Asia".
The Pivot to Asia Was Obama’s Biggest Mistake ... By putting Asia at the center of its security strategy, the Obama administration inadvertently made the entire enterprise seem to Beijing like an effort to contain China militarily. This led China to respond by becoming more aggressive, helping to undo the general tranquility that existed before 2008.
https://thediplomat.com/2017/01/the-piv ... t-mistake/

Re China's healthcare, it's free and covers the basics for the majority of its citizens so it already beats Obamacare. And the Chinese today seem pretty healthy - and rich judging by the many tourists buying up Shinjuku - - before the covid-19 op.
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby toomanyhatz » 29 May 2020, 03:14

Aaand we're back to "sources."

No, sorry. "We are sponsoring the protests" is too pat and I'm not buying it, and Consortium News long ago proved to me that their main priority is to shoehorn everything into their narrative. And everything else I'm reading about the protests is that there is support from multiple places and multiple factions. The truth is never that simple.

Nor is a population of over a billion universally "healthy" or "wealthy" or anything else. Some are, some aren't, some are pro-democracy, some are pro-Beijing, some Love Trump, some hate him, and on and on.

Inconveniently, it is still not a binary world.
Jimbo wrote:My point is to save the world from WWIII.

Jimbo wrote:This bullshit is horseshit.

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Jimbo » 29 May 2020, 03:58

Fuck it. You believed the Russiagate bullshit. You believed Assad is a monster. You believed the utterly stupid Skripal affair. You believed massive skyscrapers could turn to dust and collapse. Go ahead and disbelieve that the US is prodding China into a war. Go ahead.
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby toomanyhatz » 29 May 2020, 06:55

Don't worry, if you ever provide any actual evidence I'm sure I can explain it away somehow. 100,000 deaths? Nah.
Jimbo wrote:My point is to save the world from WWIII.

Jimbo wrote:This bullshit is horseshit.

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby toomanyhatz » 29 May 2020, 07:07

I mean, you've been right about so much so far. Why there was that time that...oh wait. No there wasn't.
Jimbo wrote:My point is to save the world from WWIII.

Jimbo wrote:This bullshit is horseshit.

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 29 May 2020, 09:04

Geezee wrote:

Hong Kong did not start to exist in 1842, and it's fairly insulting to even imply that. I see no political or economic reason why Hong Kong should not belong to China, any more than I see no political or economic reason for Taiwan not to fully belong to China, or any other relic of the imperial era to go back to its original country.



Re HK:

To all intents and purposes HK didn't exist before the island was permanently ceded to Britain in 1842; it being famously described at the time as "a barren rock" by British foreign secretary (and later PM) Lord Palmerston.

Given that China did little either globally or economically until Mao died and Deng initiated the open door policy some 140 years later, it is hard to see it ever amounting to very much more.

In other words, had the British not capitalized (pun intended) on the huge trade potential opened up by HK's being the deepest and safest harbour in a region beset by typhoons it would probably now be nothing more than one of China's many vast second or third tier cities at best.

Re Taiwan:

While the country is sadly likely to get its own RIP thread later on, the Taiwanese were always an independent people with a history and culture dating back 6,000 years. Although colonised by the Dutch, the country was never part of China, it was annexed by its Qing Dynasty emperors in the late 17th Century.

Re: China's absurd claim it has territorial rights on The Spratlys and Paracel islands

While you can see "no political or economic reason for Taiwan not to fully belong to China, or any other relic of the imperial era to go back to its original country" you conveniently ignore China's own aggressively imperialalistic expansionism in the South China Sea.

In attempts to colonise mineral-rich islands many hundreds of miles outside its coastal waters, China is wreaking havoc on the region's eco-system by turning delicate coral reefs that have taken millions of years to form into landing strips for military aircraft.
Last edited by Sam Stone on 29 May 2020, 13:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 29 May 2020, 09:25

Jimbo wrote:
But Fuery sees this again with panicked propaganda-ized eyes. China bad. Protesters good. He's wrong again. He's always wrong. Mr. Wrong. Hm. Sounds Chinese. :?



Far from seeing the issue through "panicked propaganda-ized eyes", I view it with the clarity and informed perspective of someone who lived there for almost 30-years - 16 of them after the handover.

While I may be wrong about many things, there are two things I am sure of. One of them being that I know more about HK than you in your pathetic rush to misdirect people by posting whatever crap article catches your eye ever will.
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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Sam Stone » 29 May 2020, 09:27

Jimbo wrote:
Go ahead and disbelieve that the US is prodding China into a war. Go ahead.



Rather than using a picture of a bunch of frightened kids holding a poster that mentions Trump's name to justify your argument, why don't you show us some actual proof that the US would even want to engage in a military confrontation they almost certainly wouldn't win.

Anyone here remember the last two times the US tried to enforce their will on an Asian nation? Those attempts didn't end terribly well iirc.

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby KeithPratt » 29 May 2020, 10:48

Geezee wrote:There's no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of the protesters are domestic. They have, ultimately, something very basic to protest against. That said, my sympathies are divided here. Hong Kong's "special status" is an imperial legacy. Hong Kong did not start to exist in 1842, and it's fairly insulting to even imply that. I see no political or economic reason why Hong Kong should not belong to China, any more than I see no political or economic reason for Taiwan not to fully belong to China, or any other relic of the imperial era to go back to its original country. That said, I have huge sympathy for the local population, who of course have grown up accustomed to something entirely different, and they are faced with an ugly, dictatorial ruler.


The difficult thing is that Hong Kong has an identity that is different to mainland China. And it is clear that the people there think differently and have a culture of democracy that rubs China up the wrong way.

During the Falkands conflict, the issue for the Argentinians was that the population of the islands were not interested in being part of Argentina - they saw themselves as British. That's why there was a war. If that had been the case, the British government would simply have given them to the Argentines because, what is the point of ruling a territory that has no interest in being part of your country? It's too much hassle and money down the drain.

The issue for the Chinese is that, simply, there was little or nothing beforehand about Hong Kong at all - no ancient Chinese city for example that had a cultural presence. It is a new city whose identity is a hybrid of Chinese language and culture mixed with institutions like the Rule of Law that are British. 180 years of British presence doesn't simply just disappear overnight.

I see no real evidence, that whilst the British presence might rightfully be called Colonialism, that the population of Hong Kong ever really rebelled against their colonial masters in any meaningful way. In fact, if you read Dominic Frisby's enlightening book on Tax, you'll find out that it was built and created in a system where there was no tax.

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Re: RIP Hong Kong 1842 - 2020

Postby Diamond Dog » 29 May 2020, 11:10

KeithPratt wrote:I see no real evidence, that whilst the British presence might rightfully be called Colonialism, that the population of Hong Kong ever really rebelled against their colonial masters in any meaningful way.


Yes I can remember you arguing forcefully and passionately for the Homelands to be returned to the Native Americans, where there was a rebellion against their colonial masters in a very deep and meaningful way.
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